Observation

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong

That's the fact, Samana. Gem first post here stressed not to judge but can a person not judge in our daily life?[

We choose that's we judge. We upgrade our living, we judge. To others , it's the same. So it's easy for us not to judge that's something not important to us, so we no need to choose or judge.

My first post does not mention 'judge' at all. I only mentioned the word 'judge' once in this thread, but not in the subject of judging others. Never happened, Jeremy.

We judge, so we choose, so we learn, then we improve our discrenment. So how to improve ourselves to Buddha teaching if we not to judge at all? We choose what to learn not saying, we swallow all we can. Isn't it confusing our mind and reach a cliff and never turn back? That's a bit funny.

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by Gem

My first post does not mention 'judge' at all. I only mentioned the word 'judge' once in this thread, but not in the subject of judging others. Never happened, Jeremy.

[quote=Gem]:
Knowledge, right and wrong, is only used to establish positions, and it is plain to see the personal accusation and assertions that arise from the dynamic between right and wrong, as people assert respective positions. All that is pure distraction, as attention falls into imaginary others and loses touch with 'what is going on with oneself'. [quote]


The one that I quoted from your first post in this thread has meaning of judging. That's what I mean and if that's the case so how to apply to judge right and wrong again? Or I misread the statements.

My post is trying to tell if it isn't the one we want, we don't learn it . Otherwise it's like reaching a cliff and we still go on......

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Its good sound awareness. I guess I am listening aware of your awareness relating in this case, so its not to hard to reflect and be aware of what your conveying..

What you listen with, will speak of itself listening and of course some people don't like drowning in others words and so end up flapping their arms about trying to save themselves from doing that. Makes me wonder what they might actually "listen too" and convey, if they do feel themselves drowning and the words start to become quite muffled and unclear..I guess we will never really know in most of these threads about suffering and "right, wrong" issues because most don't want to drown in others words that don't fit their world ....hehehe

I guess we could call it 'selective listening', and it seems as though one's own internal voice may at times create things which were never actually heard. I remember once I suffered terrible accusations where I pretended to be my girlfriends recently deceased father's brother, but I actually said I was his daughter's partner. The accusers claimed I fabricated the story in a quest to get his money, but in fact, it was they who had that intent, and it their story was a fabrication (which they really seemed to believe) that enhanced those ends. Sometimes, the selfish aspects of ego can create whatever it needs to sate itself, with little regard for the truth, but a convincing dose of belief.

In the forum if I speak of the truth, I most likely will get some sort of spiritual sounding reply that negates truth altogether, but all that is philosophical nonsense, and the truth is all important within spiritual life. The aspects of truthfulness, honesty, which sets the conditions for trust, are quite simply crucial. Without it we end up with these believed but untrue 'hearings' not only in regards to what others say, but more importantly, in regards to fooling oneself. One doesn't have to be a 'spiritual genius'. Physicist Richard Feynman said it perfectly: "The first principle is you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool".

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

I guess we could call it 'selective listening', and it seems as though one's own internal voice may at times create things which were never actually heard. I remember once I suffered terrible accusations where I pretended to be my girlfriends recently deceased father's brother, but I actually said I was his daughter's partner. The accusers claimed I fabricated the story in a quest to get his money, but in fact, it was they who had that intent, and it their story was a fabrication (which they really seemed to believe) that enhanced those ends. Sometimes, the selfish aspects of ego can create whatever it needs to sate itself, with little regard for the truth, but a convincing dose of belief.

Yes that can become the case in some cases as your showing in your example. You as the person are weighed up against something that the other is holding you up against that is their issue and being projected into all that as your intent and reason for being what your just being.. Sadly when you have a larger group involved in this way it can be very difficult to prove your "place" as you intended it to be to begin with.

In the forum if I speak of the truth, I most likely will get some sort of spiritual sounding reply that negates truth altogether, but all that is philosophical nonsense, and the truth is all important within spiritual life. The aspects of truthfulness, honesty, which sets the conditions for trust, are quite simply crucial. Without it we end up with these believed but untrue 'hearings' not only in regards to what others say, but more importantly, in regards to fooling oneself. One doesn't have to be a 'spiritual genius'. Physicist Richard Feynman said it perfectly: "The first principle is you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool".

The issue with truth as I see it, is that people get caught up in the truth of self versus the truth of self and what it "should be doing", which in many cases can conflict with the "real truth" of themselves expressing and opening deeper to notice more, to actually see others more truthfully and to see that in that truth of yourself being more truthfully self aware, 'one' can be doing more clear without need or desire to make be. The untrue hearings are of course skewed interpretations designed around skewed beliefs and sometimes skewed emotional ties, so it can be tricky with regards to someone who is in "knowing" of the "facts" and still unclear in themselves, up against someone who understands the "knowing" and more clear in themselves aware of that knowing.

Coming to know your own foolish self was in fact a point of recognition in myself that had to face myself. I am glad it came, it is often those kind of points in yourself that tend to be a little more stubborn and cant let go. Again this relates to your own deeper vulnerabilities that often want to protect themselves, especially if it means you have to say, "Ooopsy, I mucked up, failed and feel really foolish. Takes courage to enter into some of those parts of yourself that like to be in control. I for one, as a fear based conditioned catholic, conditioned in everyway of fear and control understand the undoing in some "not so pleasant" ways of myself.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong

That's the fact, Samana. Gem first post here stressed not to judge but can a person not judge in our daily life? We choose that's we judge. We upgrade our living, we judge. To others , it's the same. So it's easy for us not to judge that's something not important to us, so we no need to choose or judge.

We judge, so we choose, so we learn, then we improve our discrenment. So how to improve ourselves to Buddha teaching if we not to judge at all? We choose what to learn not saying, we swallow all we can. Isn't it confusing our mind and reach a cliff and never turn back? That's a bit funny.

There is good sound judgement without attached belief, need and desire to make right and fix others Jeremy. There is clear open judgment that makes choices and decisions without attachment to what is there and moves itself more clear.

Do you see the difference?

Can you feel the difference?

For example those that are holding onto judgement will read Gem's post in feeling something to relate it as that intent. Yet when I read Gem's post I read that he is very clear in his awareness of judgement more naturally, because I am in myself.

How do I know I am?
Simply because I know I faced myself in it and let go to know. By facing I mean walking it through to let go of my attachments more complete to feel others who are more clear in their relating.

To me the subtle and not so subtle aspects of most issues unresolved in people can only be felt clear when you are clear.

Do you notice the difference in people in this way?

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

There is good sound judgement without attached belief, need and desire to make right and fix others Jeremy. There is clear open judgment that makes choices and decisions without attachment to what is there and moves itself more clear.

Do you see the difference?

Can you feel the difference?

For example those that are holding onto judgement will read Gem's post in feeling something to relate it as that intent. Yet when I read Gem's post I read that he is very clear in his awareness of judgement more naturally, because I am in myself.

How do I know I am?
Simply because I know I faced myself in it and let go to know. By facing I mean walking it through to let go of my attachments more complete to feel others who are more clear in their relating.

To me the subtle and not so subtle aspects of most issues unresolved in people can only be felt clear when you are clear.

Do you notice the difference in people in this way?

What I wrote is in general discussion . I don't think he's pointing on me in the first place. So I was not attached to any attachment. What he wrote is pointing to too many at one time that's maybe unnecessarily. So he should make more specific of just be bold to say who is he pointed to in his post.

That's anyone who accuse others will be included in his post. Maybe right or wrong doesn't matter. That's what I saw or wrongly saw. That's why I responded this way.

As for you I didn't respond to as you've written one post if I'm as you said. I'll also respond to you. That means I'm only responding it in a general way, nothing to say Gem is very wrong or very right. But my main saying is to Ground that he's responding with his Dzogchen viewpoint again. But I did continue to write about it. Maybe my more later post is trying to tell Gem of his saying of judging....that's what happened here.

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong

Someone just don't know what you're talking about and how they're on the same page. They think Buddhism is accepted or to accepting others who are defiled but what they introducing are beyond Buddhism teaching. So do we want to change discussion of other religions seriously on the topic of Buddhism. Outlook and viewpoint are totally different��. That's we talk of apple but oranges not say this way. So how to discuss on the same topic.


I'm the first one to view Gem thread but I don't respond to it. Let more view other than mine to say first. So eventually the same thing will come out. So you are right. But others don't telling me no judgement again otherwise no discussion or argument , they're all judgements.

This is what I want to respond to Ground not to Gem.

What I want to tell Gem is if no judgement then I don't know what|how to improve myself.

[Gem]

[quote=Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by Gem

:
Knowledge, right and wrong, is only used to establish positions, and it is plain to see the personal accusation and assertions that arise from the dynamic between right and wrong, as people assert respective positions.

This is plain to see, but I only mention it so as to discourage it here. I prefer my own threads to be based in loving kindness. I personally have significant experience in Buddhist meditation and Sangha living, so I have value to offer - not a teaching or something correct, but something I can share of myself from my life. I don't want to be insulted, derided, belittled or accused of lying as I have been in the past -especially seeing as truthfulness is a primary tenet of Buddhist ethics - and the virtue I value most.

A person may know very little, but be a wholesome and honest soul who regards all others highly and with respect. One who does not go into accusing people or making personal remarks. One who has no inclination to compete in arguments and debates. One who can be just as they are and feel no need to be perfect. One who is mindful of themselves and sensitive to the feelings of other folk. One who is honest with people and kind hearted. These are the value I tend more to promote.

The one that I quoted from your first post, has meaning of judging. That's what I mean and if that's the case so how to apply to judge right and wrong again? Or I misread the statements.

My post is trying to tell if it isn't the one we want, we don't learn it . Otherwise it's like reaching a cliff and we still go on......

I think it is fair to say, if I didn't say 'judge' then judging isn't what I was talking about.

[Jeremy Bong]

[quote=Gem]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong

This is plain to see, but I only mention it so as to discourage it here. I prefer my own threads to be based in loving kindness. I personally have significant experience in Buddhist meditation and Sangha living, so I have value to offer - not a teaching or something correct, but something I can share of myself from my life. I don't want to be insulted, derided, belittled or accused of lying as I have been in the past -especially seeing as truthfulness is a primary tenet of Buddhist ethics - and the virtue I value most.

A person may know very little, but be a wholesome and honest soul who regards all others highly and with respect. One who does not go into accusing people or making personal remarks. One who has no inclination to compete in arguments and debates. One who can be just as they are and feel no need to be perfect. One who is mindful of themselves and sensitive to the feelings of other folk. One who is honest with people and kind hearted. These are the value I tend more to promote.






I think it is fair to say, if I didn't say 'judge' then judging isn't what I was talking about.

So after your further explanation, I think I understand what you meant. But from your earlier post l should have misunderstood your mind --- thinking. To be a good person of no judgement of other's wrong or right, that's what you said. Yes, that's a good reason for a good Buddhist to follow, I can appreciate that.

But I'm not able to follow that because as I said before I'm doing my assignment to adjust the order of the spiritual realm and it's always with the attachments on both sides. That's why I can't be intoxicated at certain teaching (I'm beyond all religions......) but I have to take a good judgement on my way.

[Ground]

ups ... where are the postings of Samana Johann? Censorship? Or did he request their deletion?

I feel I have met Johann in the past in buddhist forums with other user names. If I am right then he is really a tough guy and can be a real pain in the neck But he's always been a great sparring partner

Also to practice patience the buddhist way he is a perfect object

Originally Posted by Gem

...I prefer my own threads to be based in loving kindness.

That doesn't seem to be Johann's cup of tea ... but honestly mine neither.