" I think therefore I am not "

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by celest

No soul, just rythm

Lol...........,

[BlueSky]

Here's what Maharaj says:

1. I am not this person, this body-mind, or any thing.

As I can't be what I perceive, I am not this body-mind or any thing that I am conscious of.

As there must be something unchanging to register discontinuity, I am not this body-mind, which is neither continuous nor permanent.

As the person is a changing stream of mental objects that I as the subject take to be my body-mind, I cannot be a person. I am, but I can't be this or that.

As it is my presence, which is always here and now, that gives the quality of actual to any event, I must be beyond time and space. I was never born, nor will ever die.

2. I am the Self, the Witness of Consciousness, pure Awareness.

I am only the Self , which is universal and imagines itself to be the outer self, a person.

I am not an object in Consciousness but its source, its Witness, pure shapeless Awareness.

Only the feeling "I am", though in the World, is not of the World nor can be denied.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Modern research has shown that thought appears in the brain before we are conscious of it. So stating "I think" is wrong. Thought is a product of the brain which is then presented to consciousness. Consciousness does not produce thought. But then we say things like, "I am thinking" "I am breathing" "I am looking" "I am going to the bathroom" I am running" all of which uses the concept that I am my body. I am doing what my body is doing. The body and me are one and the same.

We totally identify with our bodies as being us. When really, I think the reality is closer to we experience the body. We are the ghost in the machine. We are a point of conscious awareness that is fed all of this sensory and mental data and in this experience we are in a type of illusion where we believe all of this input is us.

It's pretty amazing that this is 2015 and scientists still have no idea what consciousness is exactly. If we really are this immortal conscious energy that connects to the body at birth, then obviously this connection is strong. We are so connected to the body that we begin to think we are the body. People do say under hypnosis, when remembering entering a human body, that there is this complex tracing of the brains synapses and structure and the conscious energy "merges" with the "self" produced by the brain. So during a incarnation, we basically become one with the body and brain. We are merged into one.

Anyone you could tell the phrase "I think therefore I am," to probably already knows you exist. They can see and hear you. Proclaiming "I think therefore I am" is unnecessary. They would know you were there even if you were not thinking.

RyanWind, nice post.

I'll also add my thoughts along the same vein...
Many wisdom traditions have various and sometimes partial presentations of what is, or What Is. Truths highlighted in one tradition do not have to and should not invalidate truths highlighted in another tradition.

As I understand things, all that is now, and all that ever has been, always will be. In the sense of What Is, and in the sense of its emanation of eternal consciousness, or what we might call eternal being-ness. The physical is not eternal in any static sense, but both Isness and consciousness always have been and will always be. So, the foundation of being in any sense, and particularly in any eternal sense, is consciousness.

Regarding consciousness, this is applicable not only to the unindividuated Oneness but to individuated consciousness as well. That is, the physical and mental melding and incarnation of Oneness into individuated consciousness may have different permutations over the span of infinity, but it too in all its infinite diversity is eternal. Meaning, the infinite diversity of individuated consciousness is also eternal...nothing that has ever individuated and come into being is ever lost by way of consciousness, even if there are infinite permutations via infinite incarnations or what have you.

In the West, the individuated consciousness experienced via incarnation is conceptualised as a soul. In the East, the concept of individuated consciousness may be cast or presented differently in relationship to, or in deference to, the Unity or All consciousness.

But the eternity of the individuated consciousness (experienced and known as embodied consciousness or soul) is also truth, just as the eternal All consciousness is truth. There is no need to deny the truth of either, simply because one is momentarily bound temporally. Once the body passes, the individuated consciousness remains eternally and is not wiped clean, discarded, consumed or subsumed.

Nothing is ever lost, there is no hierarchy of consciousness (individuated versus unindividuated)...only infinite beingness (potential) and, whilst individuated, manifest potential and growth. The truth of existence is, crudely speaking, fractal in its essence, including the truth of consciousness. IMO the rest is dogma, and it is what we are here to unlearn.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[GreenGazer]

Originally Posted by Gem

It's a quip that Descartes made which people latched onto, but it's taken out of context, and only represents a small part of his self philosophy, but he made a more complete statement, which reads,

"I had the persuasion that there was absolutely nothing in the world, that tere was no sky and no earth; neither minds nor bodies. Was I not, therefore, at the same time, persuaded that I did not exist? Far from it. I assuredly existed since I was persuaded. But there is, I know not what being, who is possessed at once of the highest power and the deepest cunning, who is constantly employing all his ingenuity in deceiving me. Doubtless then, I exist since I am deceived - and let him deceive me as he may, he can never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I am conscious that I am something, so that it must in fine be maintained, all things being maturely and carefully considered, that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true each time it is expressed by me or conceived in my mind."

I have read very little of Descartes. I think I skimmed thorough my grandfather's library and read a few pages regarding him maybe 6 or so years ago. Looks like I need to take a closer look at it. Thanks for sharing this passage. I don't necessarily agree with everything in the quote or in the little I have read of his writings/statements but I like his mind and the way he thinks. I think a more in depth look into his other philosophies would have to be an interesting read.

[essvass]

Originally Posted by celest

I think the original Descartes quote is wrong
Anyone like to agree/disagree ?

Thanks Ivy for reminding me of the original quote in one of your posts

Celest, thank you again for your interpretation of my images and for everything. It means more to me than anyone would know.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by GreenGazer

I have read very little of Descartes. I think I skimmed thorough my grandfather's library and read a few pages regarding him maybe 6 or so years ago. Looks like I need to take a closer look at it. Thanks for sharing this passage. I don't necessarily agree with everything in the quote or in the little I have read of his writings/statements but I like his mind and the way he thinks. I think a more in depth look into his other philosophies would have to be an interesting read.

I think the mistake people make about "cognito ergo sum" is that they presume a lot of meaning from that little saying, but of three words out of several thousand. Descarte's self inquiry, a process of doubt similar to the Eastern approach of 'neti', is written in his 6 meditations (which are available online).

Originally Posted by celest

I think the original Descartes quote is wrong
Anyone like to agree/disagree ?

Thanks Ivy for reminding me of the original quote in one of your posts

hello!

The bests truths are paradox.

It is both correct but ultimately a hidden truth.

Thoughts will become you. So yes, correct!

But the quote does not say yay or nay to thinking

So we build on top of it!

Thoughts are heavy, and being is heavy.

Non being is light. Non thinking is easy.

Or, birds are singing, humans are thinking, but oh what joy to be a bird.

Humans promote thinking, because humans promote anything they do!

Yet, Mr bird wins in his joy :)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by hoplight

hello!

The bests truths are paradox.

It is both correct but ultimately a hidden truth.

Thoughts will become you. So yes, correct!

But the quote does not say yay or nay to thinking

So we build on top of it!

Thoughts are heavy, and being is heavy.

Non being is light. Non thinking is easy.

Or, birds are singing, humans are thinking, but oh what joy to be a bird.

Humans promote thinking, because humans promote anything they do!

Yet, Mr bird wins in his joy :)

Selective observations of birds and humans, which purposely omit the despair of the former and joy of the latter, only support invalid claims, fallacious beliefs and an illusion posing as spirituality, but this thread is much more than that. Descartes exacted the courage at least to doubt everything of the senses so as to inquire unto the truth of the self. As to whether of not the truth he sought was found, there isn't any answer. His conclusions said that he exists when he thinks of himself or self expresses. He did not claim to be essentially existent as himself per-se. The saying 'I think ergo am' is largely misconstrued, or can be construed selectively - much like that parody on birds.

[r6r6]

Experience precedes concept i.e. without experience of a somethingness-- our pinky ---via our brain/nervous system, there can exist no access to mind/intellect.

Physical/energy aka occupied space, precedes access to metaphysical-1 mind/intellect.

I think about something with a something ergo I am.
Loopy has it correct, I drink ergo I am.
Or, I stink ergo I am.

Mind/intellect, occupied space and non-occupied space are the trinity that are eternally complementary to each other.

r6