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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #11  
Old 05-04-2019, 11:00 AM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Angel1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satchidananda
Each one of us here on Earth is an Individualized Manifestation of the Very Source of All That Is!
God is nothing but the Very Consciousness that pervades the entire Universe!!

The absolute truth is that the One Godhead (Paramatma) divided itself into infinite souls (Jeevatmas)
so it could have infinite different experiences in infinite different ways.
Shortened for space.
I know ...but it was wonderful to hear it again.
When experienced...well, then ya know!

Hahaha, similar to an NDE! Once you've had one...well, then ya know!
Can't really intellectualize about it. It just is what it is.
Thank you.



__________________
.,
,
,

"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...
Meditate unceasingly,
that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"
~~Lahiri Mahasaya, the guru of Yogananda's guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.
Better to PM me if you want me to see a post to me. I miss a lot.







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  #12  
Old 05-04-2019, 11:54 AM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
First of all, iamthat. Why not mention the same about OP and his/her so called ''ABSOLUTE TRUTH''?
Why not explore your own philosophy with us? :-)


I consider ''Soul evolution'' a contradiction to functioning ecosystems. Soul evolution necessitates a belief in a pyramid of life and linearity, and if humans lie or murder or do anything else deemed immoral they are said to reincarnate as foxes, spiders, or bugs, assuming this is some sort of 'punishment'. But how can it actually be when all these species serve an important ecological role? Is it a ''punishment'' because these creatures cannot 'think' and 'talk' about things, like humans do? Clearly this is human hubris, projecting our values upon the universe and upon all life, placing ourselves at the top. This is a religious belief, it got nothing to do with how life functions. And for all we know, an animal could be more in tune with the spirit world than you and me. There used to be a time when we thought of guides as being animal or hybridized, but with the advance of civilization we began to turn our backs to other species (save a few domesticated ones) and began to focus on uniquely human characteristics like the conceptualization of an experience of ''happiness'', and of ''suffering''..

Concerning soul lessons.. I do not believe in it because the soul is already divine and has no need to learn. I see the spiritual path as unpacking the baggage and getting closer to this divine nature. This is not about 'spiritual evolution' or lessons, it's about rediscovery of harmony..

If I may chip in, I agree as-good-as 100%. Humans are far too arrogant about their place and status in the ecology.

Likewise, the idea of soul lessons seems to break from the logic of what soul is meant to be. The issue is, then, where does a soul start? Are some organic entities born with just the seed of a soul, the antecedent being what was the 'quality' of soul that produced the seed. Or are some born into physical life with no soul but the potential to build one? That doesn't make sense to me.
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2019, 04:11 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
If I may chip in, I agree as-good-as 100%. Humans are far too arrogant about their place and status in the ecology.
I'm surprised but relieved someone agrees with me on this.. haha! It's hard to come by, most people think the world is ''made'' for humans, which of course is a reflection of the advancement of civilization. If people see this domination and mastery over the environment most of the time, it starts to become the 'norm'. Are we with such beliefs really any better than the medieval church who believed the earth was the centre of the universe? I don't think we are..

Travel back in time a few thousand years and most cultures had gods with animal characteristics and less need to conceptualize 'happiness' and 'suffering'. The gods have become mostly human and the prominence of male gods indicate mankind's domination over life and over women. Heck, out of all things even a ''creator god'' has become male (!!), creating a man and then a woman out of the man's body (Genesis story; billions of followers...) contrary to real life. You should check some medieval writing on this topic.. could be for laughs or it could make you mad!

We've created a civilization with us mastering the environment and other animals. We now imagine we are the most important species, pets and livestock are the most important animals, the biggest god must be a He. Even the afterlife wishes become a reflection of peoples' need for order and predictability..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
Likewise, the idea of soul lessons seems to break from the logic of what soul is meant to be. The issue is, then, where does a soul start? Are some organic entities born with just the seed of a soul, the antecedent being what was the 'quality' of soul that produced the seed. Or are some born into physical life with no soul but the potential to build one? That doesn't make sense to me.
Yes.. it begs the question where it came from. The usual answer I've come across is ''It was always there and always had a body''. This however creates an issue because if we assume an individual soul never had a start we cannot assume it will have an end. It simply assumes there are zillions of individuated souls just waiting in line for enlightenment, without any cause..

A way out of this is to assume that the universe reforms itself, and we continue to play our part. I would say, if something at all ends - say, individual existence - it does not stop processes of individualization from happening from that source. The ocean may be calm for a moment but in the long run it doesn't stop changing. Picture it like a Sun with rays as individuals. Those rays on the left coming in, absorbed into unity, and rays on the right coming out, becoming individual. Those on the right are not the same as those on the left..

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  #14  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:01 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
First of all, iamthat. Why not mention the same about OP and his/her so called ''ABSOLUTE TRUTH''?
Why not explore your own philosophy with us? :-)


I consider ''Soul evolution'' a contradiction to functioning ecosystems. Soul evolution necessitates a belief in a pyramid of life and linearity, and if humans lie or murder or do anything else deemed immoral they are said to reincarnate as foxes, spiders, or bugs, assuming this is some sort of 'punishment'. But how can it actually be when all these species serve an important ecological role? Is it a ''punishment'' because these creatures cannot 'think' and 'talk' about things, like humans do? Clearly this is human hubris, projecting our values upon the universe and upon all life, placing ourselves at the top. This is a religious belief, it got nothing to do with how life functions. And for all we know, an animal could be more in tune with the spirit world than you and me. There used to be a time when we thought of guides as being animal or hybridized, but with the advance of civilization we began to turn our backs to other species (save a few domesticated ones) and began to focus on uniquely human characteristics like the conceptualization of an experience of ''happiness'', and of ''suffering''..

Concerning soul lessons.. I do not believe in it because the soul is already divine and has no need to learn. I see the spiritual path as unpacking the baggage and getting closer to this divine nature. This is not about 'spiritual evolution' or lessons, it's about rediscovery of harmony..

So perhaps we need to define what we mean by Soul. And as always, different people will mean different things when using the word Soul. Which makes it difficult to agree on whether the Soul evolves or undergoes lessons.

For me, Soul is consciousness. The whole process of life is the evolution of consciousness in form. Form provides a vehicle of expression for consciousness, and there is a hierarchy of forms which provide greater opportunity for Soul expression. This hierarchy can be considered as the various kingdoms - mineral, vegetable, animal, human, and those kingdoms beyond the human.

The idea that humans who act immorally are reborn into the animal kingdom makes no sense to me. The animal kingdom and the human kingdom are separate, and the occult constitution of a human being is different to that of an animal. So having evolved to the level of being human we cannot be reborn into the animal kingdom. But the human kingdom is not at the top. In the greater scheme of things we humans are quite low down the scale.

And yes, the Soul is already Divine because everything is Divine. But does the Soul as consciousness identify with form and the limitations of personality? Or does the Soul as consciousness identify with Atman, that spark of Brahman or the Supreme Being? The human journey is the journey from identification with form to identification with formlessness, when consciousness rests in the Divine nature. This is a journey of evolution through learning. Then we have made the transition from the Human kingdom to the Spiritual kingdom.

Yes, just another set of beliefs. We each find a belief system that works for us. And at the end of the day we could all be completely wrong.

Peace.
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  #15  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:49 AM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
So perhaps we need to define what we mean by Soul. And as always, different people will mean different things when using the word Soul. Which makes it difficult to agree on whether the Soul evolves or undergoes lessons.

For me, Soul is consciousness. The whole process of life is the evolution of consciousness in form. Form provides a vehicle of expression for consciousness, and there is a hierarchy of forms which provide greater opportunity for Soul expression. This hierarchy can be considered as the various kingdoms - mineral, vegetable, animal, human, and those kingdoms beyond the human.
True. It'll be different for us all and almost impossible to explain in words simply because of that uniqueness. I'm happy with a certain model of how it is and how it fits with the cosmos. Others have a right to their own beliefs.

Quote:
The idea that humans who act immorally are reborn into the animal kingdom makes no sense to me. The animal kingdom and the human kingdom are separate, and the occult constitution of a human being is different to that of an animal. So having evolved to the level of being human we cannot be reborn into the animal kingdom. But the human kingdom is not at the top. In the greater scheme of things we humans are quite low down the scale.
You see, this is the sticking point. Tell me definitively why the animal and human "kingdoms" are different. We're animal and just another species. We can't live without the ecology (I mean, let's face it, it's nurtured us for the best part of a million years) and every part of it has its functional place. The only difference I can see is that humans are the biggest takers without putting anything back. Take any aspect of the ecology and remove it and it'll adjust to our disadvantage - maybe not instantly: controls have to come into play and they'll take time to make the adjustment.

It's pointless claiming we have powers that other animals don't. Of course we do but they have powers that humans don't also. Do they think? We don't know because until recently we flatly denied the possibility - because we can't communicate with them. It's increasingly obvious they communicate among themselves. More recently we've been given cause to wonder. We certainly can't claim to be as collaborative and focused as ants, for example, capable of analysis of problems, designing solutions, to focus on long-term projects and work together to achieve the aims. Do they have souls? We simply don't know.

Declaring ourselves the boss over Nature doesn't mean we are Her boss. That's just wishful thinking. As I said in another post, a bacterium with superior adaptability can wipe out humans en masse. Likewise, humans with their weird beliefs about making material progress can wipe out swathes of humanity and the ecology with their many pollutions.

This has little to do with spirituality in itself. It's a system. We can observe it, model it in various ways - hopelessly incompletely - but that's because we're not always clever at defining boundaries and boundary-spanning connections to the external. And we are just another part of it. That's "sense data", as near to a fact that you can get and vastly more factual than beliefs that you can divide animate life into "kingdoms".

It's just my view but was one of the big awakenings. It's there before our eyes and we all recognise it regardless of how we think of reality. Evidence: we use it to be able to survive. Animals could be as spiritual as us. They may seem to lead simpler lives - a matter of degree not function - but we really don't know. They're there and without them, humans wouldn't be. It's all a system.
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  #16  
Old 06-04-2019, 10:27 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
The only difference I can see is that humans are the biggest takers without putting anything back. Take any aspect of the ecology and remove it and it'll adjust to our disadvantage - maybe not instantly: controls have to come into play and they'll take time to make the adjustment.
Yes, and remove us and almost all species would do fine. Cats and dogs would go feral and would do fine, as would horses as pigs. They've already gone feral in many places..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
It's pointless claiming we have powers that other animals don't. Of course we do but they have powers that humans don't also.
Exactly.. We obviously are special, but so is every other species. This is the key, to recognize it's about variety and harmony, not about a pyramid. Religions are obsessed with pyramids, and Hinduism is no different with its many structures in place..

Same old desire to create pyramids and order.. everything nicely structured along predictable pathways..
Everything feels like a fixed script, which makes for POOR storytelling. Would ''God'' really be such a dull writer...? Or is it just order-demanding humans who did the writing?

We have unique qualities but that doesn't make us 'better' as there's no such thing as ''more evolved''. Evolution got nothing to do with pyramids, it's about how life adapts to a specific environment. You can't say polar bears are superior to sloth bears when they're uniquely adapted to different environments..

Spiritually.. I believe we are not ''evolving''.. we are rediscovering divinity.. which was always there.. and unlike matter, it's not changing..

There could be all manners of animal 'gods' or great spirits out there..
Maybe the wolves and the monkeys are in perfect harmony with the earth's spirit and we are the fools..



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
It's just my view but was one of the big awakenings. It's there before our eyes and we can all recognise it regardless of how we think of reality. Animals could be as spiritual as us. They may seem to lead simpler lives but we really don't know. They're there and without them, humans wouldn't be. It's all a system.
Yes..
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2019, 02:40 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
If I may chip in, I agree as-good-as 100%. Humans are far too arrogant about their place and status in the ecology.

Likewise, the idea of soul lessons seems to break from the logic of what soul is meant to be. The issue is, then, where does a soul start? Are some organic entities born with just the seed of a soul, the antecedent being what was the 'quality' of soul that produced the seed. Or are some born into physical life with no soul but the potential to build one? That doesn't make sense to me.
Not necessarily if lessons are or must be experience, is the soul perfect? We tend to think the soul is. I'm a believer of lessons because I have changed based on time and experience. Being here we get to experience and explore fully and completely that is accomplished in a linear way that cannot be explored any other way. Is this the way of it. Lessons or learning. Personally I am aware of change, I have learned, I have changed some ideas, I have seen both sides, something we all will experience. I like the use of the word organic because it is the organic side that changes and the organic is physical to, and it makes me sense there are laws of organic experience. The seed is information that already is present that evolves (evolution) that the soul must experience. It is like asking why couldn't I have been this way from the beginning saying this from the perspective of change. For instance, I consider karma nothing more then information and that information must be experienced. And the idea of the individuated soul has been presented and does it imply it is or has become a separate and distinct entity itself being permanent. There comes a point one can or is unable to change any longer organically which is why renewal must happen for new experience. Renewal versus resistance. It is not only a question where the soul starts but where it ends maybe.
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  #18  
Old 06-04-2019, 02:41 PM
dybmh dybmh is offline
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Satchidananda,

I appreciate what you have written. I think is useful and beautiful for those of us who believe in God, but it is not convincing for those that don't.

I think the most relevant objection is below:

"People getting killed in war, or dying from a virus, or killing themselves isn't decided before birth. Things can happen randomly, 'bad' things happen to 'good' people etc."

I agree with you on everything that you said in your OP. When I read it, it is comforting, beautiful, useful, and true. But it may not be comforting to those people who are currently suffering. Also, many people are troubled by political and world events, and I imagine it is hard for them to appreciate what you are saying in the spirit which it is being given because they are in pain and/or they empathize with others who are suffering.

My favorite part of your OP is below:

"The absolute truth is that the One Godhead (Paramatma) divided itself into infinite souls (Jeevatmas) so it could have infinite different experiences in infinite different ways."

I have never thought of it this way. And I think you are absolutely right. I thank you.
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  #19  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:53 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
You see, this is the sticking point. Tell me definitively why the animal and human "kingdoms" are different. We're animal and just another species. We can't live without the ecology (I mean, let's face it, it's nurtured us for the best part of a million years) and every part of it has its functional place. The only difference I can see is that humans are the biggest takers without putting anything back. Take any aspect of the ecology and remove it and it'll adjust to our disadvantage - maybe not instantly: controls have to come into play and they'll take time to make the adjustment.

It's pointless claiming we have powers that other animals don't. Of course we do but they have powers that humans don't also. Do they think? We don't know because until recently we flatly denied the possibility - because we can't communicate with them. It's increasingly obvious they communicate among themselves. More recently we've been given cause to wonder. We certainly can't claim to be as collaborative and focused as ants, for example, capable of analysis of problems, designing solutions, to focus on long-term projects and work together to achieve the aims. Do they have souls? We simply don't know.

Declaring ourselves the boss over Nature doesn't mean we are Her boss. That's just wishful thinking. As I said in another post, a bacterium with superior adaptability can wipe out humans en masse. Likewise, humans with their weird beliefs about making material progress can wipe out swathes of humanity and the ecology with their many pollutions.

Regarding humans and animals, I go with the models put forward by Theosophy and Alice Bailey which consider the esoteric constitution of humans and animals. This model involves the various planes of consciousness, the various bodies (physical, etheric, astral, mental, spiritual) and the chakra system.

All of which states that humans are more than just another species of animal - we are a completely different kingdom. It is not a question of physical abilities, as obviously many animals have particular abilities to live in a particular environment. It concerns more the ability to develop abstract thinking and higher consciousness.

Yes, more beliefs. But do any of us have genuine knowledge?

And as you say, the problem is that humans think that Nature is there to be exploited. This may take the form of grabbing all the mineral resources possible or causing untold suffering to the animal kingdom for the sake of a plate of food. The relationship between humanity and Nature is out of balance, and one day Nature may act to restore the balance. This all reflects the level of human ignorance, but there may come a day when humanity learns to live harmoniously with Nature.

Peace.
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  #20  
Old 07-04-2019, 04:07 AM
Satchidananda Satchidananda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Regarding humans and animals, I go with the models put forward by Theosophy and Alice Bailey which consider the esoteric constitution of humans and animals. This model involves the various planes of consciousness, the various bodies (physical, etheric, astral, mental, spiritual) and the chakra system.

All of which states that humans are more than just another species of animal - we are a completely different kingdom. It is not a question of physical abilities, as obviously many animals have particular abilities to live in a particular environment. It concerns more the ability to develop abstract thinking and higher consciousness.

Yes, more beliefs. But do any of us have genuine knowledge?

And as you say, the problem is that humans think that Nature is there to be exploited. This may take the form of grabbing all the mineral resources possible or causing untold suffering to the animal kingdom for the sake of a plate of food. The relationship between humanity and Nature is out of balance, and one day Nature may act to restore the balance. This all reflects the level of human ignorance, but there may come a day when humanity learns to live harmoniously with Nature.

Peace.
Humans / ETs are Individual Souls.
Animals / Plants / Birds / Reptiles / Microbes are all Group Souls. For Example, an entire breed/all members of a sub-species will share the same soul.
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