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  #211  
Old 25-09-2012, 05:17 AM
Buzz
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
Greetings..

Hi Buzz: That is a good example of if/then rationalizing.. but, if you were to 'let go' of the beliefs supporting this rationalization that everybody's beliefs are OK, then there might be more incentive to actually do something about the suffering, oppression, and abuse.. you know, try telling a starving child, or an abused spouse, or an oppressed group of people that it's OK, it's all 'God'.. or, try telling the terrified kidnap victim 'God' is selling you into the child sex trade, or.. or, actually take a stand for what is self-evident, for what can be seen and known as needlessly harmful, without the stories in the mind's rationalizing department..

Be well..

Hey Tzu. I didn't quite view it the same way. Not as a system of beliefs to cling to in order to justify all the 'bad stuff' out there. To me it speaks more of non resistance and acceptance. It is next to impossible to address anything in life that we resist. An allowance that all things, yes even all the things that are perceived as 'wrong' are firstly acknowledged. Once acknowledged without resistance can then be addressed free of emotion, well at least from a point of greater clarity.
Well at least that is my take on it and it is not my place to push it down anyone's throat, I simply introduce it as an alternative to resistence. One of my 'things' has been to work on my own levels of resistence to life, so I can see at times a simple shift of focus can make all the difference. In fact, who knows the future of mankind may rest on a shift of perspective.

Last edited by Buzz : 25-09-2012 at 06:18 AM.
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  #212  
Old 25-09-2012, 09:30 AM
Neville
Posts: n/a
 
Things are only ever going to be as you perceive them to be, this applies to me as much as everyone else.

What you think is what you think. What I think is what I think.

there's a certain resignation arrived at once one realizes this.
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  #213  
Old 25-09-2012, 09:33 AM
TzuJanLi
Posts: n/a
 
Greetings..

Quote:
Originally Posted by silent whisper
You make your point once again about how it concerns you that others "may" use their own reality in ways that does not serve those causes where the reality is what it is..........and really now I see where your ongoing issue is with most people...you constantly challenge that space in others sharing that they may in fact not be walking the talk with a greater picture in mind...when in fact they may....

Do you see Tzu that we all have our own unique spaces to contribute even to the oppressed or the child abused...you may walk in the door and bring your crusader image to take out the bad guys...I might walk in and hold the abused child in arms of compassion....someone else may walk in the same door and share a story that lightens the pain...someone else might walk in and give the child a temporary home to live in....At times I feel you underestimate the oneness as being only about crusading from your perspective..when in fact in the oneness we all contribute in our own way....from our own unique perspective and understanding of how we see the world...and how we walk our talk.

Its the combining in that moment that truly brings the oneness alive...
Hi SW: i fully accept that these undesirable conditions exist, but i will not 'allow' that existence without resistance.. you say, "I might walk in and hold the abused child in arms of compassion".. and, i refer you to the many accounts of those with the same mission that became martyrs, lives lost believing that 'allowing' would protect them.. it didn't. I wish for the best, and prepare for the worst, without expectation of either.. i deal with what 'is'.. as long as there is a majority of people unwilling to create a more evolved reality with their actions, rather than their beliefs.. we will struggle with those that would turn that lack of action to their advantage..

Be well..
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  #214  
Old 25-09-2012, 10:22 AM
Mountain-Goat
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathew
I'm bored so I get roped into egotistical battles with others,
For Mathew....

A Sufi teaching tells of the man who visited a great mystic to find out how to let go of his chains of attachment and his prejudices.
Instead of answering him directly, the mystic jumped to his feet and bolted to a nearby pillar, flung his arms around it,
grasping the marble surface as he screamed, "Save me from this pillar! Save me from this pillar!"

The man who had asked the question could not believe what he saw. He thought the mystic was mad.
"Why are you doing that?" the man asked. "I came to you to ask a spiritual question because I thought you were wise,
but obviously you're crazy. You are holding the pillar, the pillar is not holding you. You can simply let go."

The mystic let go of the pillar and said to the man, "If you can understand that, you have your answer.
Your chains of attachment are not holding you, you are holding them. You can simply let go."
-----------------------------
"The basic principle of spiritual life is that our problems become the very place to discover wisdom and love." - Jack Kornfield

"It is hard to let old beliefs go. They are familiar. We are comfortable with them
and have spent years building systems and developing habits that depend on them.
Like a man who has worn eyeglasses so long that he forgets he has them on,
we forget that the world looks to us the way it does because we have become used to seeing it that way through a particular set of lenses.
Today, however, we need new lenses. And we need to throw the old ones away."" - Kenich Ohmae

"A cardinal principle of the Spiritual Warrior is: It is not what is happening that is important;
what is important is what you are doing with it.
Thus the Spiritual Warrior says, "Regardless of what it looks like, regardless of my perception,
I will use everything for my advancement, upliftment, and growth." - John Roger

"Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality.
It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh

"The limits you create will be real to you until you learn to step beyond them.
Then they will cease to be real. Then, you will look back at the reality you used to inhabit and feel claustrophobic,
wondering how you were able to stand its narrow confines." - Paul Ferrini

"By attempting to avoid the responsibility for our own behavior, we are giving away our power to some other individual or organization.
In this way, millions daily attempt to escape from freedom." - M. Scott Peck

"You have the power to control your own destiny. You may not feel at all comfortable with that,
or want to own up to the responsibility it implies, yet it is true nonetheless.
You may complain that there are so many powerful and overwhelming outside forces acting upon you that nothing you do will matter.
Yet everything you do matters to the highest degree in creating your own destiny.
For your destiny is not about what comes to you. It is about who you choose to become.
Your destiny is not really about what happens to you. It is built and fulfilled by the things that you cause to happen,
by what you do with the precious life you have. It happens in every moment, with every choice,
with every thought and every action. Always, you are creating your own unique destiny." - Ralph Marston

"Our soul work...is to repair ourselves, to heal into wholeness.
It is, simply put, to identify and remove whatever gets in the way of being truly who we are.
It is the task of uncovering our authentic self from the encrustations that overlay it, concealing it from us." - M.J. Abadie

"Life can bring us to the edge of who we think we are: our sense of self, our capacity to love,
our personal ambition and vision and what it all means to us.
And from this view from the edge, we will find that we are far greater.
From this place at the edge, we enter the unknown personal frontier of the broken-open heart.
This experience of life holds a great gift, found only by those with courage to enter their own heart with eyes wide open." - Julie Interrante

"The truth you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new." - Pema Chodron

"You cannot always control what goes on outside. But you can always control what goes on inside." - Wayne Dyer

"We are no longer puppets being manipulated by outside powerful forces; we become the powerful force ourselves. " - Leo Buscaglia

"We can only give away to others what we have inside ourselves." - Wayne Dyer

"The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem." - Theodore Rubin

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." - Carl Jung

"A being who's awareness is totally free, who does not cling to anything, is liberated." - Ram Dass

"We human beings have many prevailing perceptions we share as a culture.
These perceptions are the prevalent beliefs our society accepts as true, generally without question.
Many of these shared perceptions form the basis of our human awareness.
If we do not make the effort to question whether or not a perception is actually true,
it will automatically become part of our belief system and, consequently our experience,
whether they are true or not." - Victoria Loveland-Coen

"True freedom is an inward state of being. Once it is attained, no situation in the world can bind one or limit one's freedom." - Jack Canfield

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself,
but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

"There is a distance between believing the Truth and embodying that Truth. " - Mary Manin Morrissey

"If you're really listening, if you're awake to the poignant beauty of the world, your heart breaks regularly.
In fact, your heart is made to break, it's purpose is to burst open again and again so that it can hold evermore wonder." - Andrew Harvey

"Applied to other people, forgiveness is a process through which we seek to free ourselves
from the bondage to another person that is maintained for as long as we stand in judgment of them." - Joan Borysenko

"This may shock you, but I believe the single most significant decision I can make on a day-to-day basis is my choice of attitude.
It is more important than my past, my education, my bankroll, my successes or failures, fame or pain,
what other people think of me or say about me, my circumstances, or my position.
Attitude is that "single string" that keeps me going or cripples my progress.
It alone fuels my fire or assaults my hope. When my attitudes are right, there's no barrier too high,
no valley too deep, no dream too extreme, no challenge too great for me." - Charles R. Swindoll

"As you create expectations of people or situations, as you create opinions of what should or
should not be taking place with yourself and others, you create your dilemmas." - John Roger

"A person is buffeted by circumstances so long as he believes himself to be the creature of outside conditions." - James Allen

"To develop a more or less accurate self-image...
is simply to gain a comprehensive awareness of those facets of yourself which you didn't know existed.
And these facets are easily spotted because they show up as your symptoms." - Ken Wilber

"People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul." - Carl Jung

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you.
If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." - The Gnostic Christ (Dead Sea Scrolls)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

"Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people." - Carl Jung

"You are powerful beyond anything you've ever imagined, but then you have to recognise responsibility.
You are personally responsible for everything in your life, once you become aware that you are personally responsible for everything in your life." - Bruce Lipton

."As soon as you start to tell yourself in your perception that you can't do something anymore,
then your biological system will adjust to prove you right. You will not do what you think you can't do." - Bruce Lipton

"Read everything, listen to everybody, don't trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research." - William Cooper

"Ultimately, no one can solve our issues for us; we must liberate ourselves.
Our genetic makeup provides the compass, our upbringing sets the compass bearings,
and our choices point us towards our destination.
Indeed, wherever we are - right here and now - gives us our best opportunity to not only evaluate where we are going wrong,
but also to uncover what we are already doing right and keep doing it.

This present moment is the best time for each of us to influence outcomes for the better.
There is no guarantee of success or failure, and the risks we presently face are great,
but how we fare in the future depends on how each of us decides to act right now
- whether we choose to make the positive changes necessary or continue doing more of the same." - Paul Bailey

"Then you have no fear any more...you're completely free." - V - V for Vendetta.
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  #215  
Old 25-09-2012, 11:06 AM
Mathew
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
Greetings..

Hi SW: i fully accept that these undesirable conditions exist, but i will not 'allow' that existence without resistance.. you say, "I might walk in and hold the abused child in arms of compassion".. and, i refer you to the many accounts of those with the same mission that became martyrs, lives lost believing that 'allowing' would protect them.. it didn't. I wish for the best, and prepare for the worst, without expectation of either.. i deal with what 'is'.. as long as there is a majority of people unwilling to create a more evolved reality with their actions, rather than their beliefs.. we will struggle with those that would turn that lack of action to their advantage..

Be well..

I'm starting to become a little more aware of ware you are coming.....don't worry I've got right into people who sit on their hands letting the more vulnerable members of our community suffer at the hands of these perpetrators. Not only did I work in the welfare area but I had personal experiences like when I was drug running in my early years. One of my experiences involved one of my beast mates who was injected with battery acid & cut up with a chain saw while he was still alive. At that point in time if I was asked to do this to my mate I would have reluctantly done so I do know what goes on out there for real.

I think my past has given me a right to say I know where you are coming from but everyone lives under a different reality, what seems right for one isn't necessarily right for another. We all have different perceptions of what's right or wrong depending on our social & ethnic back ground.

If some one's idealism is to rape every child to purify them in some way that's harmful but if someone else's idealism is love I can't see the similarities.

In some countries overseas some men can have many wives but in our society that's an utter sin, so who's right & who's wrong, there is no right or wrong here obviously. In the west we look at the wold through a christian dominated society view point but that doesn't fit with the rest of the world.

I can't personally see anyone on this site wanting to abuse or harm anyone on this site through their idealism's to the extent you have mentioned here, if you believe so point them out & yes I agree not all idealism's suit our western society based standards but personally I'm a little more open minded than that for which I could be wrong in doing, maybe!!

Love
Mathew
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  #216  
Old 25-09-2012, 11:29 AM
sound sound is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,972
  sound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathew
I wouldn't put you as egotistical but in all honesty no I don't know it was a fair call at that time....but I suppose we see what we want to see at times & that's it.

I was probably a little sensitive as I use to teach my disables clients to stick up for themselves & not except being trod on in every imaginable way by abled people, I suppose I was a little overly presumptuous with you but I really did think you were being unkind. You wouldn’t believe half the stories I could tell you in how some people would manipulate these unfortunate people & use their disability against them. I am very sorry that I presumed you to be something you’re not, truce!!!

The problem with me is I’m a little zealous in practising what I preach at times.

Love
Mathew

Hi again Mathew
Thanks for your vote of confidence re: my ego lol ... but i can be just as self centred as the next person, and don't find it useful to deny that ... I try to remain aware of the tendency for that to occur and check myself. For what its worth, i dont paint myself as more spiritual than you or anyone else ...

I wasn't being intentionally unkind to you during our conversation on the other thread and if that is how i was perceived then I am sincerely sorry about that ... it doesn't really make any difference to my experience if you don't believe me but that's the truth.

I probably would believe the stories you told me as i worked as a senior support worker with people with moderate to severe learning disabilities for a decent stint back in the day, and was required to advocate for them on a regular basis surrounding issues of potential abuse and being taken advantage of by abled people. I also implemented a program where we taught our clients not to blame their disability on not being able to do certain things which they were struggling with for other reasons, and worked with them to tear down some of the barriers they faced which had the potential to encourage development of secondary disabilities if not recognized and 'nipped in the bud' ... anyway I didnt mean to go that far into my stuff but just wanted to share that in the hope that it might create a little more understanding between us ... its good you have stuck around :) ...

Last edited by sound : 25-09-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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  #217  
Old 25-09-2012, 03:38 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,847
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
...everyone doesn't have the "right to their own idealism", yes, they can choose it, but when it includes needlessly harming others, their 'right' is extinguished by their actions..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
So then, in theory - someone who persistently and aggressively hassles another forum member should be suspended?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
define "hassles".. if you mean 'someone' who posts alternative perspectives in diminished scope and scale compared with another forum member's regularly posted belief mantras, then no.. especially when there is a standing invitation for an open discussion about the differences of understanding.. as noted above, there is an easy solution.. tell me you do not want to discuss your understandings, that you choose to avoid supporting the beliefs you post.. i will always support my beliefs with anyone willing to do the same, in civil discussion..


Hi TzuJanLi,

In attempting to answer your query...

I cannot figure out who the two cases (bolded portions) in the above quote would possibly be referring to, respectively. They seem to imply some excruciatingly insufferable differential, some intolerably irreconcilable factionalizing. Is all the agita just a fantasy of your still mind, or some other non-existent part of a seamless undifferentiated (when convenient) reality?

Out of hundreds of active members and all of their participation, anyone's and everyone's posts could qualify for either description - sometimes both in the very same post. So, where's all the criminal activity? They are essentially equivalent based on what happens here daily and hourly. In fact I could see you TzuJanLi equally represented by the latter as the former - and maybe even more so in the majority of your posts. (just guessing that the second case is the one you identify with more, correct?)

The very existence of the forum - the word 'forum' itself implies "a standing invitation for an open discussion about the differences of understanding" as simply revealed by the self-evident contrast of their very declarations. Also within that self-evident context of 'life happening' on the forum, what could reveal 'what is' with more clarity and simplicity than someone indicating they do not care to respond to any discussion by simply not doing so, or the amazing opposite? That is some authentic isness (as distinct from insistenceness and its inseparably reactive inverse resistanceness)

The posts themselves are always inherently both the explicit statement of, and the implicit support of any member's beliefs (attitudes, values, etc.) just by making them. That is also self-evident. What is not self-evident, not a requirement of membership, and not even implied as such - is the necessity or demand to argue, defend, and prove the truth value of one's personal beliefs. In the spiritual context it's somewhat a fallacy anyway - civil or not.

Why do you think you have to 'prove', defend/support your beliefs - in some self-styled macho intellectual battle on behalf of the safety and security of the entire 'free' world? Unless you doubt them yourself. Like terrorists vs. good-guys, it appears to be an irreconcilable internal conflict, with each thinking the 'other'...is the 'other' - - faith and doubt, eternal enemies. As soon as one or the other pops up, it's whack-a-mole time.

At that point (instead of lighting up a non-filter cigarette), it may seem helpful to project that internally conflicted dialog onto others, by have a 'sparring partner' (talk about ritual conditioning) who helps to reveal one's own lack of faith, self-doubt, incapacity - through whatever 'weakness' needs more work to perfect. Or, the morally 'more correct' result, by vanquishing the ideological foe, thus making the world safe from what is immoral using logic and reason (and the premise of one's preferences) to rationalize and 'prove' one's preferences and beliefs as superior; to dominate - by disproving and invalidating another's - again, as if this was possible - it is a fallacy, even if a personal conceit of some, just like the one where 'civil' justifies 'enforceable'.

But here is the key:
Someone would have to consent to play that role for you, since it is your preference as a means, and because also and significantly, it is not the one and only way of revealing truth (especially for one who doesn't favor it). Otherwise it is a form of conscription - and here, that is part of my definition of 'hassle'.

~ J



Last edited by Jyotir : 25-09-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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  #218  
Old 25-09-2012, 04:27 PM
silent whisper
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
Greetings..

Hi SW: i fully accept that these undesirable conditions exist, but i will not 'allow' that existence without resistance.. you say, "I might walk in and hold the abused child in arms of compassion".. and, i refer you to the many accounts of those with the same mission that became martyrs, lives lost believing that 'allowing' would protect them.. it didn't. I wish for the best, and prepare for the worst, without expectation of either.. i deal with what 'is'.. as long as there is a majority of people unwilling to create a more evolved reality with their actions, rather than their beliefs.. we will struggle with those that would turn that lack of action to their advantage..

Be well..


In your unwillingness to allow that existence without resistance..I have no issues with that......more that in your underlying foundation to resist this, your resistance is felt....in you.......not for the purpose of that resistance, but the resistance you have placed in you for that very purpose...I wonder if this resistance reflects upon others in ways that are not connected to the purpose you wish to use it for...simply because you on some level remain resistant...you know..
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  #219  
Old 25-09-2012, 05:20 PM
TzuJanLi
Posts: n/a
 
Greetings..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi TzuJanLi,

In attempting to answer your query...

I cannot figure out who the two cases (bolded portions) in the above quote would possibly be referring to, respectively. They seem to imply some excruciatingly insufferable differential, some intolerably irreconcilable factionalizing. Is all the agita just a fantasy of your still mind, or some other non-existent part of a seamless undifferentiated (when convenient) reality?

Out of hundreds of active members and all of their participation, anyone's and everyone's posts could qualify for either description - sometimes both in the very same post. So, where's all the criminal activity? They are essentially equivalent based on what happens here daily and hourly. In fact I could see you TzuJanLi equally represented by the latter as the former - and maybe even more so in the majority of your posts. (just guessing that the second case is the one you identify with more, correct?)

The very existence of the forum - the word 'forum' itself implies "a standing invitation for an open discussion about the differences of understanding" as simply revealed by the self-evident contrast of their very declarations. Also within that self-evident context of 'life happening' on the forum, what could reveal 'what is' with more clarity and simplicity than someone indicating they do not care to respond to any discussion by simply not doing so, or the amazing opposite? That is some authentic isness (as distinct from insistenceness and its inseparably reactive inverse resistanceness)

The posts themselves are always inherently both the explicit statement of, and the implicit support of any member's beliefs (attitudes, values, etc.) just by making them. That is also self-evident. What is not self-evident, not a requirement of membership, and not even implied as such - is the necessity or demand to argue, defend, and prove the truth value of one's personal beliefs. In the spiritual context it's somewhat a fallacy anyway - civil or not.

Why do you think you have to 'prove', defend/support your beliefs - in some self-styled macho intellectual battle on behalf of the safety and security of the entire 'free' world? Unless you doubt them yourself. Like terrorists vs. good-guys, it appears to be an irreconcilable internal conflict, with each thinking the 'other'...is the 'other' - - faith and doubt, eternal enemies. As soon as one or the other pops up, it's whack-a-mole time.

At that point (instead of lighting up a non-filter cigarette), it may seem helpful to project that internally conflicted dialog onto others, by have a 'sparring partner' (talk about ritual conditioning) who helps to reveal one's own lack of faith, self-doubt, incapacity - through whatever 'weakness' needs more work to perfect. Or, the morally 'more correct' result, by vanquishing the ideological foe, thus making the world safe from what is immoral using logic and reason (and the premise of one's preferences) to rationalize and 'prove' one's preferences and beliefs as superior; to dominate - by disproving and invalidating another's - again, as if this was possible - it is a fallacy, even if a personal conceit of some, just like the one where 'civil' justifies 'enforceable'.

But here is the key:
Someone would have to consent to play that role for you, since it is your preference as a means, and because also and significantly, it is not the one and only way of revealing truth (especially for one who doesn't favor it). Otherwise it is a form of conscription - and here, that is part of my definition of 'hassle'.

~ J


No, ~ J, i don't "have to 'prove', defend/support" anything, i choose to.. by the way, how many ad hominem straw men will you employ on this crusade?.... Your position is to defend the party of your preference, and to diminish the party of your disdain.. my position is to notice preference and disdain, and find the clarity that reveals both as less favorable than the clarity to choose a course of action with the most favorable consequences for ALL participants in this Life.. your conception of "hassle" has no foundation, it only serves your agenda.. simplify, say what you really mean, plainly.. can you, will you?

Be well..
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  #220  
Old 25-09-2012, 08:21 PM
Gofa
Posts: n/a
 
To be or not to be
This probably was the question in the beginning
I feel you suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous arguments
And by you aposing they will never end them
To sleep perchance to dream of them putting it simply
Cant see that either
Go with God Tzu your kung fu is strong to me
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