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  #41  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:49 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Here is more the Buddhist view on things 7L.

http://zen-ua.org/wp-content/uploads...ra_english.pdf



Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Why is it that the ignorant are given up to discrimination and the wise are not?



The Blessed One replied: it is because the ignorant cling to names, signs and ideas; as their minds move along these

channels they feed on multiplicities of objects and fall into the notion of and ego-soul and what belongs to it; they make

discriminations of good and bad among appearances and cling to the agreeable. As they thus cling there is a reversion to

ignorance, and karma born of greed, anger and folly, is accumulated. As the accumulation of karma goes on they become

imprisioned in a cocoon of discrimination and are thenceforth unable to free themselves from the round of birth and death.



Because of folly they do not understand that all things are like maya, like the reflection of the moon in water, that there is

no self-substance to be imagined as an ego-soul and its belongings, and that all their definite ideas rise from their false

discriminations of what exists only as it is seen of the mind itself. They do not realise that things have nothing to do with

qualify and qualifying, nor with the course of birth, abiding and destruction, and instead they assert that they are born of a

creator, of time, of atoms, of some celestial spirit. It is because the ignorant are given up to discrimination that they move

along with the stream of appearances, but it is not so with the wise.

This one stood out to me:
...since the ignorant and simple-minded, not knowing that the world is only something seen of the mind itself, cling to the multitudiousness of external objects, cling to the notions of beings and non-being, oness and otherness, bothness and non-bothness, existence and non-existence enternity and non-eternity, and think that they have a self-nature of their own, and all of which rises from the discriminations of the mind and is perpetuated by habit-energy, and from which they are given over to false imagination.
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  #42  
Old 05-02-2018, 04:54 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
This one stood out to me:
...since the ignorant and simple-minded, not knowing that the world is only something seen of the mind itself, cling to the multitudiousness of external objects, cling to the notions of beings and non-being, oness and otherness, bothness and non-bothness, existence and non-existence enternity and non-eternity, and think that they have a self-nature of their own, and all of which rises from the discriminations of the mind and is perpetuated by habit-energy, and from which they are given over to false imagination.
So what do the wise see? Do the wise who claim to see otherwise, see outside of the mind?
Is there anyone here who these words stand out to them see this outside of the mind?
It seems contradictory, ignorance is replaced by knowing but knowing could not involve the mind else it would be more ignorance.
I get it that people believe this and relate to it that way but how could one trust anything they see if this is true.
I wonder too if you lived on an island and never heard of such things if you would naturally explore this.
Just some thoughts of mine.
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  #43  
Old 05-02-2018, 08:00 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
So what do the wise see? Do the wise who claim to see otherwise, see outside of the mind?
Is there anyone here who these words stand out to them see this outside of the mind?
It seems contradictory, ignorance is replaced by knowing but knowing could not involve the mind else it would be more ignorance.
I get it that people believe this and relate to it that way but how could one trust anything they see if this is true.
I wonder too if you lived on an island and never heard of such things if you would naturally explore this.
Just some thoughts of mine.

Taking this from another thread where I was writing about Rigpa.

Quote:
To give you an idea, I will share some of my experience of the observer as you mentioned.



The first thing most people experience when they have realized silence to one degree or another in daily life is what we term The Witness. It is like we have a freedom from judgments, from our thoughts, we can observe them and not be so attached to them.



With increased depth we begin to feel that movement of thoughts silent or not as flows of energy within us. For me this was at my 3rd eye and the movement or flows felt like the twirling wind of a fan flowing through me. Just like Norbu describes one can rest or jump in that movement and it is a freeing of attachments, they liberate you could say and you are in a state of very blissful clarity.



Notice how so far each is like a flow of energy we are noticing that we can become free of and yet with increased depth we are able to reside back in it or get caught up back in it.



The Witness we have realized silence and are able to notice our thoughts, with increased depth we notice those thoughts are flows of energy. Another deeper step.



The person Tom, me and all that makes up this person called Tom is nothing more than flows of energy that we are attached to. It is nothing more than another bigger thought that we are caught up in. To realize this is not to step beyond such flows and rest in another movement or to jump into something else. Would that not be dualistic?

All things are energy, that we are caught up in. This world is no different than ones thoughts, the "I" as described above. What we are is beyond all of that.

So the Buddha is talking about realizing Void=Form and Form=Void. Void being silence and form being energy which is everything. When you are attached you are caught up in it. The wise is the one who has realized his true nature.
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  #44  
Old 05-02-2018, 08:13 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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  #45  
Old 05-02-2018, 09:31 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
So what do the wise see? Do the wise who claim to see otherwise, see outside of the mind?
Is there anyone here who these words stand out to them see this outside of the mind?
It seems contradictory, ignorance is replaced by knowing but knowing could not involve the mind else it would be more ignorance.
I get it that people believe this and relate to it that way but how could one trust anything they see if this is true.
I wonder too if you lived on an island and never heard of such things if you would naturally explore this.
Just some thoughts of mine.




' So what do the wise see? Do the wise who claim to see otherwise, see outside of the mind?'



The wise use the non- conceptual mind, Buddha Mind.
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  #46  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:10 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
So what do the wise see?

I have no idea.

Quote:
Do the wise who claim to see otherwise, see outside of the mind?
Is there anyone here who these words stand out to them see this outside of the mind?

Not too sure about that.


Quote:
It seems contradictory, ignorance is replaced by knowing but knowing could not involve the mind else it would be more ignorance.

I think knowing can be misconstrued as knowledge we acquire, so I prefer to use the word 'insight' for the realisations that enhance wisdom, and these sorts of realisations are the learning which transforms you. These don't set as aquired knowledge per se... because obviously, learning everything that Buddha ever said doesn't make one wise... but realising things tacitly through the real lived experience does.

Quote:
I get it that people believe this and relate to it that way but how could one trust anything they see if this is true.

It's not so much what we see and experience, because that in itself doesn't reveal anything, but to see deeply can reveal the fundamentally momentary nature of experience.

Quote:
I wonder too if you lived on an island and never heard of such things if you would naturally explore this.
Just some thoughts of mine.

Probably not because there would be no teachings like 'Buddhism' to fuel the delusions that perpetuate the idiosyncrasies of the religion. I often query, what is there to look for at all? Isn't 'this' enough? And really, I become much calmer and more alert when I just stay here with what happens to be going on.

I advocate a meditation practice, but don;t make it important let alone necessary. It's just healthy and it makes the day a little bit better, the mind a bit calmer, the attention a little more alert, the disposition somewhat less irate. It can open things up a bit, you know, keep in touch with yourself.
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  #47  
Old 06-02-2018, 05:21 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Thanks for all the replies. I certainly have entertained things such as Buddha mind, realizations, the witness and energy flowing but what I have come away with is that unless you are thinking actively about these different perspectives, they have no value. In other words they are different ways of looking at yourself. They are ways to perceive the world other than the most accepted way, which is as a me and a you.
So to me they are mind games and when dropped, you are once again left simply not knowing.
I'm OK with that, I'm just curious why you all feel otherwise.
Personally I think what has sustained Buddhism or what it has become all these years is that this thing we can't know but think we can appeals to a need to be special or different from the norm. That's just my opinion based on my experiences and observations of human nature including my own.
It's something to grasp onto, even if it's a perspective of no you or you as the witness or you as beyond the witness or as your realizations
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  #48  
Old 09-02-2018, 08:29 AM
Eelco Eelco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
They are ways to perceive the world other than the most accepted way, which is as a me and a you.
So to me they are mind games and when dropped, you are once again left simply not knowing.
I'm OK with that, I'm just curious why you all feel otherwise.

I feel otherwise.
The Buddhist training. re-wires the brain/mind in a tangible and sometimes even measurable way. Fmri's, the studies in neuroplasticity which seem to come up.
They seem to suggest that there are "states" of being which are noticeably and measurably different from the "normal" states of sleep, deep sleep and wakefulness.

Those that practice the path. eventually go beyond faith belief and doubt into a world where what at first is taken on faith is now a lived reality.

The pragmatic dharma movement has many practitioners claiming they attained what the Buddha taught. often without the Spiritual clutter we see in the more traditional Buddhist religions..

With Love
Eelco
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  #49  
Old 09-02-2018, 04:50 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
I feel otherwise.
The Buddhist training. re-wires the brain/mind in a tangible and sometimes even measurable way. Fmri's, the studies in neuroplasticity which seem to come up.
They seem to suggest that there are "states" of being which are noticeably and measurably different from the "normal" states of sleep, deep sleep and wakefulness.

Those that practice the path. eventually go beyond faith belief and doubt into a world where what at first is taken on faith is now a lived reality.

The pragmatic dharma movement has many practitioners claiming they attained what the Buddha taught. often without the Spiritual clutter we see in the more traditional Buddhist religions..

With Love
Eelco
Thank you for your response. I certainly have been in these states of being. Especially so when I practiced journeying. The thing is, they come and go.
Not that I find something wrong with that.
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