Encounter with a horrible human being....

[Riboflavin]

Originally Posted by Nada

Do you see yourself as the same level as a cat or a lion?
Have you ever seen any cat or lion having a "trophy" of their kill?

No, and I have seen animals take trophies yes.

BTW, I eat meat. I can kill an animal if I have to feed myself, my love ones, and my pets. This is a natural order and I am a part of it. But I would not sacrifice a life of animal for fun. There should not be any fun in killing an animal.

That's great for you, I'm sure you don't give even a single thought to the suffering your meal goes through, anymore than the lion does. It's not the same thing, but it's definitely worse in terms of the net result. How many animals do you think you consume each year? You talk about being human and being capable of making different choices. It's so easy to judge isn't it?

Do you not think that there is a price to payed whenever you judge people?

Originally Posted by Riboflavin

Well I'll defend it a little anyway. I don't think there's anything wrong with testing oneself in the hunt. Especially when using things like bows.

I'd have to disagree. Hunting out of necessity is one thing, but going out and seeking trouble is something else all together.

We have claimed so much of the world for ourselves that in the few places we've left for animals, we shouldn't be going in and killing them for fun. Not only that, but I think there are more productive ways to test oneself than to go out and try to kill something. It wouldn't be something to be proud of accomplishing. While those animals may not be human, they still have their own emotions, memories, relationships, and they live a much harsher life than people who hunt for sport. When the hunter leaves, the animal doesn't get to go back to it's den and relax on a lazy-boy. Their life is a struggle all the time, and I don't think we should add to it just because we're bored or feeling insecure.

Not only that, but it's not a fair test. Even if we use traditional hunting techniques or tools, the animal cannot compete back. If it fights back successfully, all that will happen is it will get tracked down by wildlife officials and killed due to being a dangerous animal that attacked a human. It can only hope to flee, and even if it gets away it may have been injured. It could also interpret the hunter as chasing it out of it's territory, forcing it to start all over somewhere else. It's just not a fair thing to do all so we can pat ourselves on the back for causing something fear and pain. It's a living creature with as much right to live in the world as we humans.

Originally Posted by Riboflavin

Like everything though it should be done in moderation, realize too that most likely for the people who do trophy hunt the lions it will probably be the one time in their lives that they do it. A few hundred lions a year, 10's of thousands combined rare animal trophy hunting.. compared with hundreds of millions of food animals, poaching, pollution, and multifarious other issues. We're talking billions here. Which tends to put things in perspective.

IMO trophy hunting is the least of human evils.

Certainly, but just because there would be greater evils, that doesn't mean we should accept or participate in the lesser ones. We can't hope to change the way the meat/farming industry treats animals if we aren't willing to see animals as anything more than sources of food or entertainment, existing only to be killed at our leisure when we're hungry or bored.

[Riboflavin]

Originally Posted by simcau

Certainly, but just because there would be greater evils, that doesn't mean we should accept or participate in the lesser ones. We can't hope to change the way the meat/farming industry treats animals if we aren't willing to see animals as anything more than sources of food or entertainment, existing only to be killed at our leisure when we're hungry or bored.

I basically agree but do you not see the hypocrisy in actively contributing to animal suffering through waste and eating meat and then telling people they can't hunt?

Or nearly as bad is the carelessness people exhibit for the pet populations. People don't get that most of time when they "give up" their pet it ends up as snakefood. What we really SHOULD do, is not allow places to sell anymore pets until we give the current population the homes they need. Always adopt. By doing so that's one less animal that faces euthenization.

The reality is that the problem is systemic. The thing is I don't mind that people eat meat, what I don't like is hypocrisy and how people are completely willing to ignore reality and the part their own actions play in it to feel "bad" for a single creature half a world away. Even worse is the hate speech and the name calling.

Anyway, hunting has been around for 10's of thousands of years. I've known several hunters in my life and even the ones that occasionally hunted for sport never wasted the meat, which IMO makes it better than mass producing livestock because at least the animal had a chance to live it's life. Even that lion in the article was cleaned and it's meat given to the locals. I've NEVER personally known a hunter to waste. I really can't say the same of people who hit the supermarket.

For the most part I do agree, and most of the hunters I've known took more care not to waste the meat as well. When I was younger living elsewhere, my bud would go out hunting every season with his brother and father. Whenever they'd come back they'd give everyone they knew some cuts because there would be too much for just them, and they didn't want it to go to waste. I think the part people have trouble with - or at least where I have the issue - is that people are seeing it as a fun thing to do. That going out and killing something is a good source of entertainment.

Buying our meat already cut, cleaned, and packaged nicely at the supermarket insulates us from the reality that it was a living animal. I'd wager that if we had to kill the animal ourselves, a lot of people would probably forgo the chicken dinners unless they were starving, because they'd find it difficult to slaughter something they would have cared for since it's birth. For myself, I try to limit my meat intake as much as possible, but try as I might, I can't get everything from non-meat sources. Every 2-3 months I get to a point where I'm tired and feeling hungry all the time, and I have to cook up a fish dinner. Every time I regret having to do it, but that regret ensure that I don't waste it, and that I only eat it when I need to for my body, rather than when I want to for my taste buds.

It has taken me decades to get to that point though. I can recall being a young kid no more than 6 years old, sitting in my driveway squishing these little red spider mites. They were running all over some concrete, and I'd tap tap tap with my finger and squish them because I was bored. At that time, I had no comprehension of life beyond myself. I knew the bugs were alive, but I wasn't really able to understand what that meant. Even as I grew older, I never saw other living things as truly being alive in the same way I was alive. I loved the taste of meat, and I ate so much of it that if I was eating food, odds were it would contain a large portion of meat. In my view, vegetarians were annoying, bizarre individuals who deprived themselves of the best tasting food out there.

When my perspective on that changed, it did so instantaneously. I had been struggling with something in life at the time, and I was attempting to think through the problem, to better understand how I should react. Suddenly it was like a rift opened within my mind and I felt connected to everything. I saw everything, understood everything, felt everything. It was as though this illusion of a universe was peeled back to lay bare the formulas behind how it all worked. That there is no "me", no "you", no color, no sound, but instead everything is a part of the wholeness that we do not simply reside within, but are a literal part of. That we have been a part of that wholeness for as long as it has existed, long before we were ever born, and we will continue to be a part of it for as long as it continues on, long after we've died.

That description is severely lacking, because what I experienced was larger than language. It came on totally unexpectedly, and I didn't "come down" from the experience for around a week. But following that, I've never been able to look at other life the way as I used to. I had finally become able to comprehend life beyond myself, because the illusion of there being a "self" at all had been utterly shattered. That's why, for me at least, hunting for sport is so baffling... as is the way we act towards living things in general. For humans to squander what great potential we have and to instead act in such selfish, irresponsible, short-sighted ways towards everything beyond our flawed perception of "self"... it really is quite a remarkable failure on our part. But I'm babbling now

[SpiritCarrier]

Simcau

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I don't believe being a bully is what caused the human species to rise above animals. Being a bully is learned behavior just like all other learned behavior it is allowed to developed in us a children. I had a pet shot to death in his fenced backyard by two 10 year old boys who shot him with power rifles, it was only bb's but when you shoot a small dog up close with high power it kills. Those children learned that behavior and they laughed, they did not feel remorse for the life they had taken. Those boys were not being supervised with weapons and they killed birds, shot cats and killed my beloved pet. That is bully behavior. That is malicious behavior and today those boys are thieves and bullies, robbing and hurting others because it was a learned behavior at home.

We as humans have the option of eating free range meat. If we stop supporting those farms and animal haters who treat animals so badly they will go out of business. We chose what we eat. We have options. Animals do not. Comparing us to the animal in this regard is pure silliness. I don't believe the lions will ever have the dexterity to build space ships, and guns. We are more advanced and that has given us options. I am not saying that there was not a time when we were little more than animals but evolution and human ingenuity has brought us to a place in time where we should know better than to treat the planet and the other life forms here in such a terrible way.

I think to say that we have those primal instincts inside of us is a cop out and I will not take that as an excuse for people being so cruel and miss using the planet or animals. We have choices, we chose what we do, we chose to be cruel, sure it may be a learned behavior from childhood but I will not allow it to continue without saying "that is wrong and I will not put up with it."

The reason we have bullies, in schools or elsewhere is because people do not stand up and say, "NO, that is not acceptable behavior and if you continue there will be consequences."

Edmund Burke said it best, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

The fact that we have a voice to stand up for what we believe in makes us the more advanced species. The fact that we can make a difference on this planet and for all the voiceless animals makes us the more advanced species. So no samcau I do not agree with your line of thought or reasoning. But being on a forum where differences make us unique and we are allowed to voice those differences is also another reason we are more advanced.

I wish you well and hope that everyone who at least reads this thread thinks about the ways we as a human species can make a difference in someones life, be it an animal or another person.

As for the abuse of animals bred for food, if I haven't already made it clear, It is atrocious and we have to do something to stop it. Write your congressmen, write anyone who will listen and stop this bully behavior. Let your voice be heard for those who have no voice. I cry for those animals as I write this, no one, no animal, human, nothing should be treated so horribly. Make a difference with more than just sitting at home behind a computer screen. Lobby against this horrible behavior and make it known that, WE will not put up with it.

Sorry I went on and on but I felt this deeply. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.

Just to be clear, I do lobby for the fair and humane treatment of animals.

Thanks again,
SC

Edit: I was simply posting to the post you directed to me earlier up.

[MorpHnStorM]

Originally Posted by SpiritCarrier

Simcau

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I don't believe being a bully is what caused the human species to rise above animals. Being a bully is learned behavior just like all other learned behavior it is allowed to developed in us a children. I had a pet shot to death in his fenced backyard by two 10 year old boys who shot him with power rifles, it was only bb's but when you shoot a small dog up close with high power it kills. Those children learned that behavior and they laughed, they did not feel remorse for the life they had taken. Those boys were not being supervised with weapons and they killed birds, shot cats and killed my beloved pet. That is bully behavior. That is malicious behavior and today those boys are thieves and bullies, robbing and hurting others because it was a learned behavior at home.

We as humans have the option of eating free range meat. If we stop supporting those farms and animal haters who treat animals so badly they will go out of business. We chose what we eat. We have options. Animals do not. Comparing us to the animal in this regard is pure silliness. I don't believe the lions will ever have the dexterity to build space ships, and guns. We are more advanced and that has given us options. I am not saying that there was not a time when we were little more than animals but evolution and human ingenuity has brought us to a place in time where we should know better than to treat the planet and the other life forms here in such a terrible way.

I think to say that we have those primal instincts inside of us is a cop out and I will not take that as an excuse for people being so cruel and miss using the planet or animals. We have choices, we chose what we do, we chose to be cruel, sure it may be a learned behavior from childhood but I will not allow it to continue without saying "that is wrong and I will not put up with it."

The reason we have bullies, in schools or elsewhere is because people do not stand up and say, "NO, that is not acceptable behavior and if you continue there will be consequences."

Edmund Burke said it best, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

The fact that we have a voice to stand up for what we believe in makes us the more advanced species. The fact that we can make a difference on this planet and for all the voiceless animals makes us the more advanced species. So no samcau I do not agree with your line of thought or reasoning. But being on a forum where differences make us unique and we are allowed to voice those differences is also another reason we are more advanced.

I wish you well and hope that everyone who at least reads this thread thinks about the ways we as a human species can make a difference in someones life, be it an animal or another person.

As for the abuse of animals bred for food, if I haven't already made it clear, It is atrocious and we have to do something to stop it. Write your congressmen, write anyone who will listen and stop this bully behavior. Let your voice be heard for those who have no voice. I cry for those animals as I write this, no one, no animal, human, nothing should be treated so horribly. Make a difference with more than just sitting at home behind a computer screen. Lobby against this horrible behavior and make it known that, WE will not put up with it.

Sorry I went on and on but I felt this deeply. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.

Just to be clear, I do lobby for the fair and humane treatment of animals.

Thanks again,
SC

Edit: I was simply posting to the post you directed to me earlier up.

I am sooo sorry you had to go through that, and I agree with every word in this post.

You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've found on youtube....Things like:

Boys skipping school to go out and shoot as may geese as possible in various locations...Just left the bodies everywhere.
A group of kids out hunting swans and geese, and playing football with them. They were such bad shots that the geese/swans would come down and still be well enough to run from them. Then, they would go chasing and kicking the swans/geese around like footballs...literally. Then jump on them too, making a game out of it...
Another one where a kid was shooting bird after bird, birds of all kinds...Song birds, Egrets, Herons, etc. Even shot a mother Grackle as she was feeding a fledgling, then shot the fledgling...Just shooting each and very bird they came across, then would show big black trash bags full of them...
Another one where some kids shot the eye of a goose out, point blank, then proceeded to torture the bird some more once it had calmed from the pain... Had the nerve to be angry at the bird when he began hissing at them and fighting back after the incident. Slapped it around and cut it up with a knife...All this while the (caged) mate looked on. They were supposed to be slaughtering the bird for dinner, but decided to torture him the process...

I did the best I could to report them. The ones shooting the wild birds, I sent to DNR in their respective states (although some of these officials are just as bad, if not worse when it comes to abuse)...The ones torturing the swans were actually dumb enough to give their location, so that particular case was a bit easier. Now that I think of it, it's been a while since I've gone combing for stuff like that...

I also did vet. med. for a large country shelter, specializing in wildlife and exotics (though I cared for all of the animals that came in), and I've been doing wildlife rescue (esp. birds and waterfowl) since I was a kid. I have seen the worst....

I find that what I focus on becomes my reality. Yes, there is a lot of darkness in human beings but there is also a lot of light. My experience is that the best thing I can do about the darkness is work on awakening myself and others to the light within in small, everyday acts.

[Jenny Crow]

MorpHnStorM - I'd like to thank you for what you do for the animals

[Lilyth Von Gore]

I think if you're hunting for food and are using every part of the animal you kill, nothing is going to waste.
I don't believe in hunting predators, however. Wolves, big cats, etc... They are small in number. Animals like deer, cows, etc... they are large in numbers.
I don't believe in trophy killing, in other words.

[Shine]

She's thoughtless and totally unaware. Very sad really :( I sincerely hope she wakes up.

She clearly sees nothing wrong with what she's doing. :(