Self - open discussion

[sound]

What do others hold as true about the 'self'? There are many ideas, beliefs, understandings and perception surrounding 'self'. Some say it is a concept, others say it is true or false identity, there are those who claim it is non existent, others claim/perceive higher and lower selves. Heres to hoping we can have a friendly discussion amongst ourselves lol

[Verunia]

Self has become such a vague term, it's giving me a brain cramp trying to simplify it enough to explain it! lol

I ask myself, without a self, who would I be? What would I be? That usually answers the question of what a self is, for me. Because without it I would not be the identity I have grown to know and be comfortable with.

I do not think it is an illusion, as illusions are mental and we usually blame them for our avoidance of 'truth'. That's solely due to our own lack of experience with our selves.

[hybrid]

Q: I mean, I have a body, a life, friends, a job.
A: Who does?

Q: Me!

A: Look inside yourself and try and pinpoint the exact spot where you are. Where is your core point?

Q: I am essentially the mind I guess.

A: Are you the body?

Q: I am the body and the mind.

A: If you were about to die of old age and I told you that science had advanced so much that we could put your 'thinking' in some sort of virtual container and keep it alive once your body had died would you accept to do it if it meant that it was the only way you could keep living? I'm sure that many people would jump at the chance. You would never have to worry about the cumbersome body ever again. Would you accept this deal?

Q: Yes. I guess I would.

A: So you agree that you are essentially not your body, right? I mean if I removed your arms , (hypothetically of course), would you still be here?

Q: Yes, I would.

A: If I removed your legs, would you still be here?

Q: Yes.

A: If I took away your eyesight, hearing, sense of touch, taste, smell... would you still be here?

Q: Yes.

A: So , where is the point in the body, if I keep taking parts away, that if I took it away, you would not be here any more?

Q: I guess there isn't one. My heart maybe.

A: So people who have heart transplants, do they become the person who was the previous owner of the heart?

Q: No, of course not. I guess I am situated in my brain.

A: So people who are brain dead are not here anymore?

Q: Well, yes, they are still classed as being alive.

A: So are you your brain?

Q: No I suppose not, because if I was brain dead but still alive then I'd still be here.

.......... but, if I didn't have a brain I wouldn't be alive.

A: Yes, but you could say that for any of the vital organs. And once the body is gone the Individual Awareness has no 'housing' to shine in.

So... if the body was still alive but the person was brain dead would they still be here?

Q: Yes.

A: So are 'you' situated in your brain?

Q: No.

A: So is there any particular point in your body which you can say is you?

Q: No, I guess not.

A: Ok, so at least we have arrived at the point where we agree that the essential 'you' is not situated in the body.

[Perry J]

What makes this a tricky subject is the nature of identification. And especially the nature of FALSE identification, since false identification has a fear-infused survival instinct.
The ego is such a false identification. It is very difficult to the ego to look at itself, but it must always project to objects outside of itself. It must always conceptualize!

We - in the Western World especially - do not know who we really are.

But do it: Look at yourself. See what happens. Look at the you-ness of YOU.
The ego tries to distract you when you do it, and it's very clever at distracting you.

We can't discuss Identity as a concept, because that would keep the ego hidden behind, undetected. We can never really get anywhere, discussing self.

Just Look at yourself. The ego will finally die.
And the ego is simply false identification. We maybe think we are our thoughts. But thoughts are mental images. We may think we are our lives. But that's also mental images.

I think self is the product of being aware. By being aware we are able to experience life in some form or another, and that means that we are able to react and learn from our experiences and augment them into our overall identity and understanding of who we are as individuals.

I suppose what I'm really saying is that Self is whatever you perceive it to be, because it is many things to many people. Self is what I see to be the culmination of who we understand we are and since there are so many ways in which our minds understand ourselves, I don't think there is any definite or "true" answer regarding Self.

Self is what I perciev/see me as in any given moment.

[andrew g]

Thats a cool conversation hybrid.

I would say the Self is who we are (kind of obvious start there I guess). The individual consciousness. Which is not separate from the body/mind yet is also reflected through the ever changing body/mind in each and every moment. I would say the Self is our individuality, our unique and essential nature, it is fundamentally eternal, has its own stamp or imprint, yet is also ever changing as we very slowly but surely become one again with Source.

I started to try and talk about the higher/lower self but I think I will leave it for now and maybe come back to it at a later date.

Oh, I will also add that because humans have the belief that 'I exist', we live with this rather strange dynamic in which we see who we are as an I AND a Self. We live in a split way, and it creates a sense of disconnection. That is why some people point to a no-self, its to point beyond the parts and resolve them.

Originally Posted by hybrid

Q: I mean, I have a body, a life, friends, a job.
A: Who does?

Q: Me!

A: Look inside yourself and try and pinpoint the exact spot where you are. Where is your core point?

Q: I am essentially the mind I guess.

A: Are you the body?

Q: I am the body and the mind.

A: If you were about to die of old age and I told you that science had advanced so much that we could put your 'thinking' in some sort of virtual container and keep it alive once your body had died would you accept to do it if it meant that it was the only way you could keep living? I'm sure that many people would jump at the chance. You would never have to worry about the cumbersome body ever again. Would you accept this deal?

Q: Yes. I guess I would.

A: So you agree that you are essentially not your body, right? I mean if I removed your arms , (hypothetically of course), would you still be here?

Q: Yes, I would.

A: If I removed your legs, would you still be here?

Q: Yes.

A: If I took away your eyesight, hearing, sense of touch, taste, smell... would you still be here?

Q: Yes.

A: So , where is the point in the body, if I keep taking parts away, that if I took it away, you would not be here any more?

Q: I guess there isn't one. My heart maybe.

A: So people who have heart transplants, do they become the person who was the previous owner of the heart?

Q: No, of course not. I guess I am situated in my brain.

A: So people who are brain dead are not here anymore?

Q: Well, yes, they are still classed as being alive.

A: So are you your brain?

Q: No I suppose not, because if I was brain dead but still alive then I'd still be here.

.......... but, if I didn't have a brain I wouldn't be alive.

A: Yes, but you could say that for any of the vital organs. And once the body is gone the Individual Awareness has no 'housing' to shine in.

So... if the body was still alive but the person was brain dead would they still be here?

Q: Yes.

A: So are 'you' situated in your brain?

Q: No.

A: So is there any particular point in your body which you can say is you?

Q: No, I guess not.

A: Ok, so at least we have arrived at the point where we agree that the essential 'you' is not situated in the body.

Hi Hybrid: that is very nicely done, is it original? You may want to re-examine the last line, though.. in the immediate instance, the body is/are the vehicle(s) manifesting the conversation, and the structure of familiar reference that 'makes sense' of the Q&A.. aside from that, the point of the message in nicely expressed..

Be well..

Originally Posted by andrew g

Thats a cool conversation hybrid.

I would say the Self is who we are (kind of obvious start there I guess). The individual consciousness. Which is not separate from the body/mind yet is also reflected through the ever changing body/mind in each and every moment. I would say the Self is our individuality, our unique and essential nature, it is fundamentally eternal, has its own stamp or imprint, yet is also ever changing as we very slowly but surely become one again with Source.

I started to try and talk about the higher/lower self but I think I will leave it for now and maybe come back to it at a later date.

Oh, I will also add that because humans have the belief that 'I exist', we live with this rather strange dynamic in which we see who we are as an I AND a Self. We live in a split way, and it creates a sense of disconnection. That is why some people point to a no-self, its to point beyond the parts and resolve them.

I'm human, and I dont have those beliefs lol. It may be that there is a time to look at different ways of understanding the words....but there is a time to let that understanding go. And I know what I mean by self, it just doesnt need explaining anymore. Sometimes, it is worth asking if you still need the explanations.

[hybrid]

i indicated the title and the author of the piece in the title head .

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Hi Hybrid: that is very nicely done, is it original? You may want to re-examine the last line, though.. in the immediate instance, the body is/are the vehicle(s) manifesting the conversation, and the structure of familiar reference that 'makes sense' of the Q&A.. aside from that, the point of the message in nicely expressed..

Be well..

amazing isn't it. that is - the possibility that the vehicle of expressions is remotely controlled since this essential you is practically not localized in the body. perhaps the term telekinesis is more appropriate?

.