Ghosts - an explanation?

[engellstein]

I think even humans that get it will see the same stuff too. It seems to be hardwired into our minds for some reason. Perhaps that's why there's a consistency to spirit stuff even though it manifests slightly differently for different people.

Kinda like how we all have the same brain structure which allows for particular personality traits across the whole human specie, but we're all different in our personalities.

An underlying structure is there but there is room for a junk ton of variety within that structure.
But maybe not. That's just my view.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by engellstein

I think even humans that get it will see the same stuff too. It seems to be hardwired into our minds for some reason. Perhaps that's why there's a consistency to spirit stuff even though it manifests slightly differently for different people.

Kinda like how we all have the same brain structure which allows for particular personality traits across the whole human specie, but we're all different in our personalities.

An underlying structure is there but there is room for a junk ton of variety within that structure.
But maybe not. That's just my view.

Yes, you got it now.

Our brains are also hardwired to see patterns in things that have a personal meaning to us, especially when it isn't the original intention. It is called apophenia or pareidolia (and this is the bane of my existence). lol

So, when an entity appears to us, often it is our own thoughts and experiences which give them form and structure (thought form).

I have never, never seen a 'ghost' though, so I wouldn't know much about this...I can only hear them.

[Shivani Devi]

Rationalising Ghosts

So, do you all want a 'rational explanation' for ghosts? I can oblige (I had to go through this 'initiation ceremony' as a paranormal investigator).

Above, I mentioned an important concept called pareidolia.

As humans, we tend to see familiar patterns and shapes in everyday items - like 'Jesus in a tortilla' or 'a human shape in a tree shadow'...dust and bugs in front of cameras become 'ghost orbs' and any vertical column of steam, mist or atmospheric disturbance becomes a 'ghost'. 99% of 'spirit photos' can be debunked as being nothing more than pareidolia combined with wishful thinking.

1.Pareidolia doesn't only extend to what we see, but what we hear too. Our brains are also hardwired to 'fill in the blanks' according to this pattern recognition, whenever we hear an incomplete word or phrase. Our minds can string phenomes (parts of words) together (like what's heard while sweeping through radio stations very fast) and make sentences out of them, having no relevance to anybody else other than the person who 'heard' it (when they probably did not). This is the main criticism aimed toward the P-SB7 Spirit Box.

So, we can see how pareidolia can make a rather overactive imagination 'see/hear things'...so we'll move on to:

2. Cognitive dissonance/bias this basically means we'll each believe whatever we want to believe, based upon our own genetics, environment, upbringing, experience and social interactions. If we belong to a culture that is more accepting of the belief in ghosts...like those Buddhists who believe in 'hungry ghosts', then we are more than or most likely to believe that what we are seeing is a 'ghost' due to cultural superstition over any scientific or rational fact.

3. Wishful Thinking - A loved one passed away recently, a possum is heard within the roof cavity - the marsupial becomes the dear departed loved one until it dies and the loved one thus 'moves on'.

4. Confirmation Bias - This is the tendency for humans to seek out only that information which supports their own views and hypothesis due to all of the above...like showing their EVPs and Spirit Photos to others who believe spirits exist so they won't keep on hearing; 'nope, absolutely nothing there, sorry'.

5. Cherry-picking of Evidence - humans tend to favour evidence that fits within their own belief system and it's a side-effect of cognitive bias. It's like how we only tend to remember the 'bad things' or we overgeneralise according to our own interpretation of raw data...e.g if something happens half a dozen times, it 'always happens' when there are more times when it doesn't.

6. Hallucination/Delusion - this isn't meant to be disrespectful, but we aren't always at our most alert or 'in control' of our mental process, no matter how much we like to believe we are at any time. Random neurons firing, just daydreaming or images coming up from our subconscious into our awareness when we aren't even consciously aware of it is normal and doesn't mean you're 'seeing ghosts' or 'going crazy' - it just means you probably need to have better sleep hygiene and diet.

Now, combine a few of the above under conditions of stress, poor environmental conditions, low lighting etc and there's your 'ghost'.

This is used to debunk existence of ghosts and basically everything paranormal, but it's all straw-man because it debunks the sum total of all human experience, endeavours and achievements up to this point in time as well.

Thanks for reading.

[Asrai]

Ghosts don't always appear to you as you would think, hence your idea of our mind projecting what we expect. I've seen a number of ghosts and they have all appeared differently to me. If the notion were true than wouldn't my mind project the same thing every time?? The same with hearing them as well. I have heard disembodied voices as we normally hear, I have also heard voices speaking in other languages, I've heard muffled voices and when one was talking to me it sounded as though he were whistling and he was getting very frustrated because I couldn't understand what he was trying too tell me.

I've have also physically seen full body solid looking ghosts, shadow masses, orbs, transparent ghosts, glowing light bodies.

It just seems like it's all energy to me. Most of them have been intelligent. Others have just been energy.

Like I said before, and probably not as eloquent as you guys speak, I still believe its all happening at once and we are simply able to tune into it.

[Shivani Devi]

Everything I said in my post above was written through direct experience (well, maybe not the 'possum' part). lol

Everything I said there, was basically said to me over the past six months, and being a rational, logical and scientific person, I believed it all at the time (like I mentioned before, it was a 'rite of passage').

It still didn't alter the fact I was hearing ghosts speak too, and in ways and terms no 'pareidolia' could ever explain.

It was also comforting to know at the end of the day, I could weigh up my evidence (however anecdotal) against every logical argument out there and go 'nope, that just doesn't apply here'. It was like a reverse 'process of elimination'.

So, yes, I believe in ghosts...but like any good debater (I learned well), I like to take the opposing argument from time to time to strengthen my own.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

As humans, we tend to see familiar patterns and shapes in everyday items - like 'Jesus in a tortilla' or 'a human shape in a tree shadow'...dust and bugs in front of cameras become 'ghost orbs' and any vertical column of steam, mist or atmospheric disturbance becomes a 'ghost'. 99% of 'spirit photos' can be debunked as being nothing more than pareidolia combined with wishful thinking.

All of this was wonderfully written Necro!

And the same list applies to most everything we experience as well as with ghosts. Take a room full of random people, get each of their birthdays and tell them you're making an astrological-specific-to-them-summary of their astrological chart, hand out the exact same descriptions to everyone, most all will swear that it fits them to a tee.

We tend to associate as we expect. We build belief structures around this internal habit, we build relationships based on such predilections, we build the core of our cultures around such leanings.

If we want to believe something we'll find a way, if we don't want to believe something we'll do like-wise. :)

[organic born]

Originally Posted by engellstein

This is a point that I haven't heard many people express. Growing up as a Christian, I never understood why angels and demons were portrayed as humanoid beings when everything to do with a human body is functional for our physical environment, and spirit beings don't live in that environment.

That's the 800 pound gorilla in the room! Everything on this planet that moves, eats and breaths was build around it's very own specific needs. Take our bodies into space and float around without gravity and our bones and muscles will tend to dissolve down to what's only necessary in order to preserve what's required to function.

I've been watching a number of videos lately of what's currently known about the evolution of species, including ourselves-- and functionally is everything. If something works, it continues, if it doesn't it no longer survives. So any 'entity' that resides outside our base requirements of being physical will clearly be subject to it's own limitations and base requirements.

Now what's interesting about having a frontal lobe like we do as humans is our ability to extend our conscious-reach into tools. Studies show that when we handle a tool our mind will incorporate this tool as though it were part of our own body. So a hammer becomes a virtual extension of our hand, our phone can be interpreted as face-to-face conversation, our cars become an extension of our legs. The home that we live in is not only the place that we stay but becomes an actual extension of our own mental bodies.

Then take a belief-structure like religion and toss this into the mix. As a hammer, a phone, a car, and our homes become extensions of our perception-of-self, so-to do our beliefs. A belief is like a tool that we wrap our minds around. This is why beliefs feel so real. They become functional elements in how we interpret our needs. Beliefs are biologically induced. Beliefs are synthetic extensions based on biological needs and only serve a function while such needs are applicable.

Our minds interpret "being saved" alongside our concern with "staying alive". Remove the body and the idea of "being saved" simply feels silly. And thus it is with most all religious attachments. Remove the body and "everything's" different, including the need for a physical form.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by organic born

All of this was wonderfully written Necro!

Thank you for saying that. =)


What is a belief? it's a concept that we put in our minds as a 'mainstay' until we can actually know, or better yet, understand.

While ever there's belief there is also doubt. When there is understanding, there's no need to believe anymore, as all belief will be self-justified.

Yes, belief is just a tool, but it's not the destination, it's the journey for those who really 'believe' they need to travel anywhere.

Just another 10c (on the subject of 'belief').

[r6r6]

Ghosts? Apperitions? Soul? Etheral Being? Spook? Poltergiest? Phantom?

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/ne...eply&p=1346271

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Ghosts?

I belive people have claimed seeing ghosts for many years, decades centuries(?).
We can see some narrow band( 450 nm - 750nm ) of EMRadiation with the naked eye.
We can see near end infra-red with special glasses. We can see other EMRadiation frequencies with other special viewing instruments.
We know little to anything regarding what repulsive dark energy is, rather scientists only see its effects on that which can be observed.
Same goes for virtual particles, we presume their existence based on effects of other particles.
Same goes for attractive gravity, it is not observed.

Ghosts?

1} maybe one of those latter three above,

2} Maybe hallucinations in brain ergo not something coming in through the eye balls.

3} Maybe optical illusions( distortions of environment ) that are coming in through the eyeball,

4} ?

Ghosts?

r6

[engellstein]

Originally Posted by organic born

That's the 800 pound gorilla in the room! Everything on this planet that moves, eats and breaths was build around it's very own specific needs. Take our bodies into space and float around without gravity and our bones and muscles will tend to dissolve down to what's only necessary in order to preserve what's required to function.

I've been watching a number of videos lately of what's currently known about the evolution of species, including ourselves-- and functionally is everything. If something works, it continues, if it doesn't it no longer survives. So any 'entity' that resides outside our base requirements of being physical will clearly be subject to it's own limitations and base requirements.

Now what's interesting about having a frontal lobe like we do as humans is our ability to extend our conscious-reach into tools. Studies show that when we handle a tool our mind will incorporate this tool as though it were part of our own body. So a hammer becomes a virtual extension of our hand, our phone can be interpreted as face-to-face conversation, our cars become an extension of our legs. The home that we live in is not only the place that we stay but becomes an actual extension of our own mental bodies.

Then take a belief-structure like religion and toss this into the mix. As a hammer, a phone, a car, and our homes become extensions of our perception-of-self, so-to do our beliefs. A belief is like a tool that we wrap our minds around. This is why beliefs feel so real. They become functional elements in how we interpret our needs. Beliefs are biologically induced. Beliefs are synthetic extensions based on biological needs and only serve a function while such needs are applicable.

Our minds interpret "being saved" alongside our concern with "staying alive". Remove the body and the idea of "being saved" simply feels silly. And thus it is with most all religious attachments. Remove the body and "everything's" different, including the need for a physical form.

Good stuff, this.

I like this verse from Crash Test Dummies' "God Shuffled His Feet":

The people sipped their wine
And what with God there, they asked him questions
Like: do you have to eat
Or get your hair cut in heaven?
And if your eye got poked out in this life
Would it be waiting up in heaven with your wife?

lol the last two lines are thought-provoking.