Lilith left Eden

[open2it]

Sometimes women get tired of hearing mommy. LOL Maybe that was her idea of freedom.

[davidsun]

I suspect that 'negative' experiences and judgments have resulted in your losing touch with your 'inner' 'child' as well as to not see and relate to the 'inner' 'child' in others (me in this case) who are seeking/inviting a playful playmate interaction witchoo.

I of course may be missing something in this regard, but there appears to me that there's no easy/playful way of my getting what I mean through to you, 7L. Hopefully, you will eventually see this as an attempt at making an authentically loving intervention, which I experience as being desirable, in relation to your obviously desirous of actualizing a 'better' way of relational-Life process. I hope you will, at least in retrospect, forgive what may initially come across as completely unwarranted and/or unnecessary rough treatment of you on my part:

'Authenticity' is one thing. 'Love' is another, but not the same, thang (of course). Whatever they really are, anyone can 'wave' the flags of 'authenticity' and 'love' to proclaim and champion what they think is most important and of 'good' value, i.e. what they think is 'best' (for Life) and so and personally choose to be about and advocate that others do so as well. That doesn't automatically mean that they are actually/genuinely relating to and with what it really present 'in' and being 'presented' by others, however.

Please know that I presented the 'dancing couples' video to 'point', by way of analog, to what I think is the 'best' way for partners (of any kind, including 'same' sex ones) to joyfully engage in loving relationship with one another.

I hope you see that others' comments about matters referenced in this thread being 'overthought' etc. also point to the loss of 'childlike' innocence and simplicity.

With deep caring and affection youward, whether you can believe that (now) or not -

[7luminaries]

Hey there David I'm up way too late...sorry didn't see the vid yet but will do later!

Very kind of you to respond and as always I appreciate your sentiments.
My use of the term authentic love is done so intentionally, to clarify the over-used term love with no qualifiers. It doesn't mean what most think it means, to paraphrase the Princess Bride.

I stated already in a recent post here that my use of the term "authentic love" (some say lovingkindness or agape, but my term is more similar to ahavah) is an active, manifest love that actively seeks the good of the other equally to the self, and the self, equally to that of the other. You of course are free to use other terms and say whatever you like, as well.

Consciously chosen and naturally overflowing aspects of manifest ahavah (authentic love) are interwoven, mutually causal, and supporting of one another. One is not bad and the other good...all manifestations of love can touch us, move us, bring us joy, and spread the love that we are.

BTW...I'm equally happy to explore my thoughts and to respond to those of others. I don't need anyone's permission or approval and likewise we are all free to disagree IMO in a discussion forum, it's certainly fine for any of us to overthink or underthink or nonthink (or whatever judgment or label we may want to put on another's output, LOL... ). However, neither do I need to agree or resonate with any judgment or label put upon me or referred to me, hahaha, and nor shall I

Peace & blessings
7L

I've given up on the word "love". It's meaningless because it can't be communicated except as a sequence of sounds. It comes with certain sensations as does its absence but it all too easily resolves as some Mills & Boon anecdote. In a relationship you get on with someone to some degree; you might converge to a closer affinity, you may diverge. In either case you look to a future with some self-interest - like measuring the values of differences against convenience/inconvenience.

I think I have managed to square this up with the man I'm with at the mo. Probably I'm just jaded but I dread the words "I love you." It takes me back to days when I had to distinguish between being romantic (you know it won't last but fabulous while it does) and sentimental (hoping it lasts forever and succumbing to anxiety when things don't go your way quite). Nice when you can just be (i.e. exist) with someone in harmony.
.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I've given up on the word "love". It's meaningless because it can't be communicated except as a sequence of sounds. It comes with certain sensations as does its absence but it all too easily resolves as some Mills & Boon anecdote. In a relationship you get on with someone to some degree; you might converge to a closer affinity, you may diverge. In either case you look to a future with some self-interest - like measuring the values of differences against convenience/inconvenience.

I think I have managed to square this up with the man I'm with at the mo. Probably I'm just jaded but I dread the words "I love you." It takes me back to days when I had to distinguish between being romantic (you know it won't last but fabulous while it does) and sentimental (hoping it lasts forever and succumbing to anxiety when things don't go your way quite). Nice when you can just be (i.e. exist) with someone in harmony.
.

Hahaha ....well, there are many truths packed in there, Lorelyen, for certain. Funny, the same truths you mention lead me to a different place. Though no need to rush any deep shares IMO, neither is there then any need to rush full-on intercourse or other invasive physical interaction. It's not intimacy without the authentic love, IMO.

I know for myself, I can just be with a friend and we share a platonic mutual authentic love...and even if parted, I still want their very best and would be there at 2 a.m. if needed. That is authentic love.

I have essentially been refreshed or rewired (so to speak) to resonate with the same authentic love in a partnership as well now...you can't go home, it seems. It was always there in me and guiding me, but now I can fully articulate it and so for me I have much more clarity of thought up front on this now than ever before.

So if I were to have sex with someone with whom I cannot just be in authentic love, well I simply could not and would not even go there. It would either be repulsive and feel coercive if I didn't authentically love them -- so pretty easy to not to go there.

Likewise, let's say I didn't love someone authentically, knew them a bit and had some casual affection for them, and for some wacky reason just had casual sex. I would need a gun to the head but let's just say OK. I would then need to bolt ASAP. Lest I risk overlaying that casual affection with contempt and anger at both self and them. I know myself and I know very well I would despise someone I don't love authentically for living superficially and penetrating me casually. I have told many a gent who wanted to just hurry up and get physical -- very kindly and with great compassion -- that I would hate his *rse in the morning if he penetrated me without a mutual authentic love, and so what is the point of that? LOL... Dead serious.

(And yes, many of them will continue to ask for sex without love...which means they don't even have enough respect for my humanity to give a damn about what I think of them. Total turn-off.)

So unless there is a mutuality of authentic love for one another as people, I wouldn't even want to go there -- it is a forgone conclusion that I will despise them and be out the door yesterday if we do not both have an authentic love for one another. Because my very humanity rises up and cries out for a mutuality of love and respect in the sacred act of sex and that's just how it is...and yes they gotta say it and do it and be it and so do I Or else just don't and deal with it - that's fine too.

This is where the energy of disciplining, paring away and setting boundaries comes in...to draw in the energy of expansion, to allow for the interpenetration of energies between oneself and between souls to have its due and sustainable place.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Khalli

Wow! a lot of overthinking on this subject.

Just looking at the state of human relations and the results of them should be enough for people to explore other options. But, looks like I could have given humanity too much credit.

ps. love the half-life analogy!

Hey there Khalli and I agree...that really is the bottom line. Look at the state of things and what's brought us to this point.

Some of my thoughts...

There are many ways to explore other options, agreed, but being open to exploring those options is key. I hope you haven't given humanity too much credit

Exploring options for me doesn't mean we chuck out meaningful engagement, committed and engaged interpersonal relationships, or lovingkindness in our human relationships (of any kind).

For me, I think reclaiming and reinterpreting our stories and transforming into a species of heart-led consciousness are big parts of exploring options, if not the key part.

Traditions may still help us in future, being that they are rich in mystical and historic lore and meaning, as Lorelyen and DavidSun noted. But IMO this is only if they undergo substantial reinterpretation of gender hierarchy and social hierarchy more broadly. As it is IMO there is still a lot of "God said" it should be this way or that way coz we're just better than the rest of you folk (whoever 'we' and 'you' are).

Otherwise as DavidSun noted, they become a part of the problem IMO, keeping humanity blind and biased. And until we see and love one another in the fullness of our humanity, IMO nothing else we do will amount to a hill of beans with regard to moving us forward in Spirit.

What about you? Do you have any thoughts on exploring new options to move us forward?

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Inika

see how awesome Lilith is? lol

So true!!! Hahaha

Peace & blessings
7L

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Sonolil

She left Eden.

Could you believe it?
Both Adam and Eve were banished from Eden.

Lilith just left.


Why?

Not only did she leave,
she left using God's lent powers,
and upon leaving, seeing the world outside paradise,
even when three angels came for her,
even then she refused to return.
She refused so much, she even accepted having her children killed,
and retaliated by equally killing Adam's children.

She refused paradise that badly.
Just because she didn't want to be Adam's subordinate.



I don't understand.

I don't understand how anyone could turn from paradise
just to save her pride and just to be herself.


What does it take for her to return?
Did she ever want to return?

Is she really happy?
If she's not what's the cost for her to be happy?
Who in the right mind does not want happiness?

Can't she just swallow her pride, just this once?
Just this once?

Please?

One man's happiness isn't another's. 'Happiness' is a complicated thang!

But, to quote Dylan: the answer my friend is blowing in the wind.

[Jyotir]

. .
. .

oops!

. . . .

[7luminaries]

Jyotir!

Here I was excited that you were going to comment on the historic archetypes &/or the need for ownership and reinterpretation...and give your thoughts

Please feel free to drop back in :)

Peace & blessings
7L