not dealing with the "world"

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by handy guy

what dharma is stupid and a farce when it comes to dealing with duality?

...granted some have paid their worldly dues and then become renunciate's.

I shall tell you...

Most, if not all, of what we perceive and believe is based upon our conditioned indoctrination of what our finite mind and intellect will only ACCEPT as being true and NOTHING else or otherwise - Dharma included.

There are two paths to Brahman, that of mutual exclusion, ie Duality does NOT exist (which most follow) and that of mutual inclusion, ie Unity in Diversity (which only a selected few do).

For example.. And a GOOD example..

There are some people who are generally disliked (even hated) by others.

They may have insulted somebody many years back... They may be slightly confrontational, they may have an eccentric lifestyle... Or a strong personality... And so, others will hate them (and hate ON them) ... But those who hate, will never admit they do as this will show a major character flaw and failing on THEIR part, so they substitute all that denial for AD HOMINEM rhetoric and attacks, then plot and plan to bring the other person down, so that they can "pay" for making the person feel that way.

This usually raises its head in such statements like (and stop me if you have heard these...)

"You had premarital sex last night... Premarital sex is against Dharma... ALL Hindus follow Dharma, so how can you even call yourself a Hindu? You are nothing but a fake... A fraud! "

" You worship an Idol... That is DUALITY... Only those who follow Advaita or non Duality are the REAL/TRUE Hindus... So how can you even call yourself one?"

Or my personal favourite..

" Hinduism is all about tolerance and inclusion, no matter your gender, skin colour, creed or where you come from... But you must be born in India of Hindu parents to BE a Hindu! It is impossible for a white woman born in Australia to be a Hindu or understand Hinduism... "

And this is where Dharma falls flat on its face.

[Shivani Devi]

Hatred is a very interesting emotion.

It totally blinds the hater to all of the virtuous qualities and deeds of a person, allowing them to focus on even the slightest and most insignificant of misdeeds, negativities and incongruities according to THEIR standards (which, if they had of been performed by another person they did NOT hate, would be perfectly accepted and even applauded), then, they will advertise the insignificant faux pas from the rooftops... Screaming long and loud, persisting non stop until they find others who will agree with them and/or who ALSO hate the person in question, so they can form a "let us all hate on Mr/Ms X society and dig up as much dirt from their past to totally discredit them and to show the whole WORLD how much it is we hate Mr/Ms X and hopefully, we'll get some new members to join our little group of hate.. " Oh...his/her socks didnt match from a photo taken in high school... That's a great start! We can definitely use that... Well done! "

[Shivani Devi]

There is a lovely tale I would like to relate... One that has repeated itself in MANY lands since the dawn of time.. This particular time, it was in India, about 500 years ago. It is a tale of man's misuse of religious principles for political ends.

The Aghori and the Nag Babas were absolutely nothing LIKE they are today. They were a peaceful, unassuming Shaivite sect. Of course they had a few "questionable" practices like Tantra, Tapasya (penance) and walking around "sky clad" smoking weed on occasion...

However, the more "upright" members of the community hated them, feared them and wanted them gone or dead - notably, the Vaishnava Brahmin priests who held very high positions of political power and influence within the kingdom...

They couldn't really find anything bad to say about them, to stir hatred in the hearts of people and to rally them against the Sadhus, so they decided to make up lies in the name of DHARMA and vicious gossip and rumours began spreading about how they sacrificed cows, how they drank liquor, held midnight orgies on the full moon, invoked the most terrible demons and even killed people and ate them... How they were an abomination to Dharma and to Hinduism and needed to go!

The people bought this hook, line and sinker. What followed was civil uprising against these holy men who were just minding their own business... Temples were looted and burned down, huts and ashrams destroyed.. A few were even killed.

The Aghoris and Babas appealed to the king.. To the council refuting all of these false claims made against them, but nobody would believe them... Nobody would listen and this went on for many months with them being accused of every little thing... Like a witch hunt. If a baby died, the Sadhus cursed the parents... If an unmarried girl became pregnant, an Aghori raped her... If crops failed, the Sadhus poisoned them... It was a smear campaign of EPIC proportions with no end to the civil unrest it caused.

The unfounded reputation proceeded the holy men and nobody would believe them because they were the "bad dudes" so there was only ONE thing left for it... 0nly one thing they COULD do... Totally live up to the reputation... Actually LIVE the lie, but do it well... Even BETTER than any story that another who DIDN'T know, could EVER just "make up".

They started to do all those things they were accused of and much, much more besides... And who was to blame for this ADHARMA? Why, the Brahmin priests were, of course! The Sadhus cursed the empire and not long after, they were attacked and invaded by Mogul forces from the north and the sadhus moved on, but kept up their practices.

They figured that if they are going to be feared and hated anyway for NOTHING, it is better they give people a bloody good reason to, so their hatred and fear could at least be JUSTIFIED and not totally unfounded and without reason... And this is why they do what they do.

[It Is]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

There is a lovely tale I would like to relate... One that has repeated itself in MANY lands since the dawn of time.. This particular time, it was in India, about 500 years ago. It is a tale of man's misuse of religious principles for political ends.

The Aghori and the Nag Babas were absolutely nothing LIKE they are today. They were a peaceful, unassuming Shaivite sect. Of course they had a few "questionable" practices like Tantra, Tapasya (penance) and walking around "sky clad" smoking weed on occasion...

However, the more "upright" members of the community hated them, feared them and wanted them gone or dead - notably, the Vaishnava Brahmin priests who held very high positions of political power and influence within the kingdom...

They couldn't really find anything bad to say about them, to stir hatred in the hearts of people and to rally them against the Sadhus, so they decided to make up lies in the name of DHARMA and vicious gossip and rumours began spreading about how they sacrificed cows, how they drank liquor, held midnight orgies on the full moon, invoked the most terrible demons and even killed people and ate them... How they were an abomination to Dharma and to Hinduism and needed to go!

The people bought this hook, line and sinker. What followed was civil uprising against these holy men who were just minding their own business... Temples were looted and burned down, huts and ashrams destroyed.. A few were even killed.

The Aghoris and Babas appealed to the king.. To the council refuting all of these false claims made against them, but nobody would believe them... Nobody would listen and this went on for many months with them being accused of every little thing... Like a witch hunt. If a baby died, the Sadhus cursed the parents... If an unmarried girl became pregnant, an Aghori raped her... If crops failed, the Sadhus poisoned them... It was a smear campaign of EPIC proportions with no end to the civil unrest it caused.

The unfounded reputation proceeded the holy men and nobody would believe them because they were the "bad dudes" so there was only ONE thing left for it... 0nly one thing they COULD do... Totally live up to the reputation... Actually LIVE the lie, but do it well... Even BETTER than any story that another who DIDN'T know, could EVER just "make up".

They started to do all those things they were accused of and much, much more besides... And who was to blame for this ADHARMA? Why, the Brahmin priests were, of course! The Sadhus cursed the empire and not long after, they were attacked and invaded by Mogul forces from the north and the sadhus moved on, but kept up their practices.

They figured that if they are going to be feared and hated anyway for NOTHING, it is better they give people a bloody good reason to, so their hatred and fear could at least be JUSTIFIED and not totally unfounded and without reason... And this is why they do what they do.

I think we've all faced this test at some point.

When you're innocent and pure but people treat you like rubbish, there can certainly be a temptation to become bitter.

But it's not about what other people think. I like to think that if one stays pure then eventually they'll get some respect for it.

[WildHairedWoman]

There is no such thing as experiencing being in a human body on planet earth and "being in the world but not OF the world". The world is what you make it, it is mostly in your head, not external to you. Whether you are a shaman sealed in a cave meditating 23 hours a day you are still dependent on that slot in the wall where someone shoves food and water in to the cave for you. You are still sitting on rock that is part of "the world". The experiences you have in meditation are of the world you have created. Whether you want it or not, being in a human body is a dualistic state. You could just quit eating or exit the body permanently some other way and you would still have to deal with the world you have created in some way, even if it is to let it go completely which requires acknowledgment that you are part of it or have created it.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by WildHairedWoman

There is no such thing as experiencing being in a human body on planet earth and "being in the world but not OF the world". The world is what you make it, it is mostly in your head, not external to you. Whether you are a shaman sealed in a cave meditating 23 hours a day you are still dependent on that slot in the wall where someone shoves food and water in to the cave for you. You are still sitting on rock that is part of "the world". The experiences you have in meditation are of the world you have created. Whether you want it or not, being in a human body is a dualistic state. You could just quit eating or exit the body permanently some other way and you would still have to deal with the world you have created in some way, even if it is to let it go completely which requires acknowledgment that you are part of it or have created it.

man I got so lost in the understanding that the world as you speak of it is mostly a personal construct (which nonetheless doesn't belie the fact there may be something else there as well) that I almost forgot what I wanted to say... which is... 'world' has an esoteric meaning which has been around long before this definition you are currently using (at least from what I can tell) and by that meaning one might go to a certain place then be considered to be in the world but not of it. In the same way that I can swim in water but not be considered a fish?

have a nice day!

[WildHairedWoman]

Originally Posted by handy guy

if one is barely in the world and not of it, and they seldom have to deal with the duality of the world, then imo that does not make for a very strong case when it comes to non-duality.

FallingLeaves,

I was agreeing with the OP, I just use a lot more words. I was also speaking to the idea of non-duality being attainable for a human on planet earth.