Observer vs Observed

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I'm discussing non-duality in the language of non-duality. Way back when I suggested some material to review and you said you didn't want to waste your time.

You are discussing non-duality in the language you think is non-duality because you are misinterpreting some key quotes, which I will discuss with you in another response. I brought a couple of these misinterpretations to your awareness in the past, in other posts and you ignored them and you called me a dualist, egotistical at etc, to distract me.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I also said there's nothing wrong with being a dualist. It's just a different path and you are using very dualistic language describing what you believe. Do you want me to humor you and agree your dualistic views are non-dualistic (in other words lie) or are you interested in perhaps expanding your knowledge? If the latter I already pointed out three good sources (Vedanta NY YT channel, The Ten Principal Upanishads and The Bhagavad Gita).

Putting words in my mouth is another tactic you use to try to use empathy against my inherently good nature.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by heart

Because my words are directed to ALL who read them. all posts help me to understand how better to respond, I have found that keeping it simple is by far the best way

My words are not 'directed' to ALL, however.

Explanatory analogy: For many, just saying that an apple falls downward because of 'gravity' or that 'gravity' explains what is called 'gravitational attraction' is sufficient to satisfy their 'sense' of 'meaning'. Those who are more curious about why and how elements of the universe function as they do and who have the capacity process more complex explnations prefer to understand things in terms of what's addressed by Einstein's Theories of Relate-ivity. And then there's this pertaining to 'gravity' and all other manifestations of the Force including 'you' and 'me' , from my book:

The potentially liberating and amendatory truth ... is that every body in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by custom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by misusage, I generally refer to it alter*natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone. (Though the full import of this cause of all causes may yet escape you, the following review and analysis of our catalog of scientific knowledge should at least make its fundamental character obvious.)

Even the simplest cases of what’s called gravitational attraction provide perfect illustration, if viewed without prejudice. Bodies of matter-energy must move themselves, for nothing really pushes or pulls them one towards the other. And they must perceive both presence and relative location, else they could not attempt to move as they do, with an acceleration proportionate to the mass and proximity and in the direction of coexisting others.

Electromagnetic and nuclear interactions, where repulsion occurs as well, are additionally revealing. Ongoing scientific investigation has led us to understand the fact that sense perceptions are basically ‘gross’ acknowledgments, and that everything is fundamentally a wave-form and nothing is actually solid at core. So, besides there being no substantive means to constitutionally link those bodies which form conglomerates, there is no real ‘boundary’ that so‑called objects bump into when they apparently bounce off one another. The only inference this permits, if one has enough courage and faith in Life not to invent extrinsic agency as a false postulate, is that the movements that bodies make and the stations they take result from the impulses and choices of discerning, autogenic ‘interiors’.

The direction and purpose of such inherent power and intentionality can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Progressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex [!] aggregations of body, mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we know as Life.

In ascending sequence, with prior developments integrated and built upon, ‘bodies’ have become more coordinated, ‘spirits’ more potent, ‘minds’ more perceptive, resident Intelligence more designful and adept. Even what some call ‘simple’ single-celled organisms are architectural masters capable of cognizing, culling and compiling environmental ingredients so as to reproduce themselves and further their particular line of development. Each succeeding level of integration further demonstrates the aim of the impetus inherent within all being—that is, to seek and establish cooperative affiliation with suitable others in order to enhance creativity and increase the degree of intelligent actualization.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The English language is a bit limited when it comes to discussing spiritual matters. There are few precise terms which convey the exact meaning we want. It is often easier to use Sanskrit words.

In this example, if we talk about awareness then different people will have different ideas about the nature of awareness. This was illustrated in an earlier discussion on this forum.

If we talk about Atman then it conveys a very precise idea - Ātman is the first principle, the true self of an individual beyond identification with phenomena, the essence of an individual. This is a much more exact term than simply saying awareness.

Many of us on this forum are quite comfortable with using such terms. And if someone uses a Sanskrit term we are not familiar with then it is easy enough to look up the meaning.

Peace

Your statement about the english language being limited is incorrect. That statement is just mental lazyness and is an excuse to manipulate people by telling people to not ask questions and receive answers.

I know Justasimpleguy, gave me this excuse too, he ignored the topic and called me names when I responded, which seems to be a theme with him.

I know about being mentally lazy because I was one of the most mental laziest people around, but then I realized mental laziness is not an excuse.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

If the answer to "What am I?" results in more questions, the questioner is still thinking in dualistic terms. There's nothing wrong with that if that's your comfort level. Some of my best friends are dualists. Hmm, come to think of it all my friends are dualists!

However if you're serious about non-duality it's a good idea to study the subject. Vedanta NY's YouTube channel is a good place to start and it would be useful to have The Ten Principal Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita handy as they will be referenced often. I'll pause videos and go directly to cited passages, read them and then go back to the video.

Yuppers

In my opinion, this DIY spiritualism on the internet just leads people down the garden path. Oh well I suppose it’s choose your poison sometimes.

Thanks for your recommendation to do serious study with reputable texts or teachers, it sure could help for someone whose cup is still empty.

Jl

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Your statement about the english language being limited is incorrect. That statement is just mental lazyness and is an excuse to manipulate people by telling people to not ask questions and receive answers.

I know Justasimpleguy, gave me this excuse too, he ignored the topic and called me names when I responded, which seems to be a theme with him.

I know about being mentally lazy because I was one of the most mental laziest people around, but then I realized mental laziness is not an excuse.

LOGIC 101: Just because you can't dig your way to China with a shovel doesn't mean that there's no 'reason' to dig at all!

Originally Posted by MikeS80

You are discussing non-duality in the language you think is non-duality because you are misinterpreting some key quotes, which I will discuss with you in another response. I brought a couple of these misinterpretations to your awareness in the past, in other posts and you ignored them and you called me a dualist, egotistical at etc, to distract me.
Putting words in my mouth is another tactic you use to try to use empathy against my inherently good nature.

With respect, what you describe is not realization.

Jl

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Your statement about the english language being limited is incorrect. That statement is just mental lazyness and is an excuse to manipulate people by telling people to not ask questions and receive answers.

I know Justasimpleguy, gave me this excuse too, he ignored the topic and called me names when I responded, which seems to be a theme with him.

I know about being mentally lazy because I was one of the most mental laziest people around, but then I realized mental laziness is not an excuse.

He said language can be imprecise when it comes to spiritual matters. It’s like there’s no exact way you can describe the taste of a mango, although you can use words to hint and indicate, only eating it will render the person clear in the experience. We use the available vocabulary to hint but recognize that true realization is beyond the common language.

Constantly calling people manipulators suggests to me that manipulation is heavy in your own psyche.

As to your state of non duality it sure seems like weak tea, and not that of the spiritual masters..nothing wrong with that but calling people who debate you or point out some facts, attackers and mentally lazy and manipulative seems just a tactic to discredit them - not very valid or accurate imo.

Jl

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by davidsun

My words are not 'directed' to ALL, however.

My operational imperative is: "S/He that hath ears that 'hear', let her/him 'hear'."

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I know Justasimpleguy, gave me this excuse too, he ignored the topic and called me names when I responded, which seems to be a theme with him.

It feels like I'm talking to myself and being that we're trying to discuss non-dualism that's actually pretty darn funny. LOL!

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Your statement about the english language being limited is incorrect. That statement is just mental lazyness and is an excuse to manipulate people by telling people to not ask questions and receive answers.

The logic of this response escapes me.

Peace