real spirituality vs. psychedelic experiences

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

well in keeping with the fact this is a philosophy board... I think it isn't so true that things 'are' what they are 'called' I think we call them what we like then try to make others conform to our definition.

Whether or not it is spiritual is ONLY related to whether you want to call it spiritual. Nothing else.

Yes I like that.

But I think there is still much up for discussion about such a subject.

[Podshell]

These plants are simply tools surely, some very good ones and if administered by experienced shaman etc can be a great catalyst for spiritual developement. (not sure about the use of man made stuff)

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by Podshell

These plants are simply tools surely, some very good ones and if administered by experienced shaman etc can be a great catalyst for spiritual developement. (not sure about the use of man made stuff)

I don't think magic plants are just tools, I think they have a spirit essence beyond what are common senses can comprehend

No, man made stuff as soon as I think about it

[Podshell]

I think some shamen see them as allies and some as having a specific spirit attached to them.

I am not bellittling some of them by labelling them 'tools' for want of a better word as tools can be magnficently elaborate.

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by Podshell

I think some shamen see them as allies and some as having a specific spirit attached to them.

I am not bellittling some of them by labelling them 'tools' for want of a better word as tools can be magnficently elaborate.

Yeah, point taken.

[Shivani Devi]

The true test of it, is to whether or not the same 'mind manifesting' experiences can be had without the use of chemical intervention by the same person.

If that person becomes reliant or dependent upon such means to have a mystical experience and cannot have one without them, becoming depressed or down when the stimulus is withdrawn from use, then the experience isn't lasting or has no profound and life-altering effect which can be maintained at that level.

When Ram Dass gave LSD to Neem Karoli Baba it seemed to have no effect upon the saint. Neem Karoli Baba said "it may be useful to some, but I have no use for it" so, if the state can be achieved without taking drugs, why the need to take drugs to achieve it? This is only logical.

I was a regular cannabis user for years, saying that it 'heightened my spirituality/mystical experiences' all it did was make me more relaxed and loosened my inhibitions somewhat. Whenever I couldn't obtain the drug, I sank lower than my 'norm' and became dependent upon it to stay in that same space without the 'coming down' and all that entails.

I've been clean and off pot for 5 months now...granted, I've had to work harder at achieving the same state of relaxation and I don't get the 'instant effect' which comes from imbibing, however, the end result and reward pays off, in that I get stoned naturally now through meditation and doing certain prayers to God and the 'high' is totally different...it opens my mind more and has a longer lasting effect until I bring myself down through a negative emotion or similar - when I allow myself not to be in that space.

Yes, drugs will get you to the top of the tree, but it won't keep you there for very long...not even long enough to say one has had a 'spiritual experience' really - more often than not, what occurs is that you lose the rational mind for a while...it's like your brain goes on holidays and that can be blissful and peaceful within itself, but the whole necessity of asking 'did I just have a spiritual experience?' whilst taking drugs, means it wasn't a true spiritual experience, or else the whole question and point of it would be moot and you wouldn't need to ask.

If you can't feel the same thing without the drugs, then it was only the drugs which caused it...and if you can get there without drugs, why waste money and your health partaking of the sacrament?

This is how I look at it after my own battle with drugs.

[Ahriman]

I thought I woke up when I was 19 years old, I had been smoking weed and had a mystical experience I thought was real. My life has been a living Hell ever since. It really messed me up. I must get back to my altruistic roots, that's the only way I'll ever be free.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

The true test of it, is to whether or not the same 'mind manifesting' experiences
can be had without the use of chemical intervention by the same person.
.

Dr. Stanislov Grof dedicated his life to this.

(I did his 6 hour Breath Workshop.)

[Kine Lea]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Yes, drugs will get you to the top of the tree, but it won't keep you there for very long...

When you get to the top of the tree, are you alone there?
Maybe the need for meaningful communication is what drags you down.

[Kine Lea]

DP

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