The Distinction Principle

[Saggi]

Originally Posted by Neville

As far as my understanding extends, It is only all One on a molecular/sub molecular basis, A Spade is comprised of Atoms, as Is the Coffee table, but you would look real strange digging the garden with a Coffee table.

But not balancing your coffee on a spade though? Hmmm,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

OK Jo , you did get me there,

[Gem]

Originally Posted by dreamt

Examples maybe we can all relate to come in the state of sleep. Those types of dreams where we are unselfconscious, and it's like we're just this kind of neutral witness to whatever is happening.
When there is no distinguishing feature to tell that it's 'me' or 'my' experience. There is a 'floatiness' and a panoramic quality to these types of dreams.

Don't you think that there is an awareness of your presence as opposed to what it witnesses in such dreams?

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by amy green

Buying toothpaste requires discernment, some form of judgement/making a decision e.g. oh I don't like that brand because...

Detecting cleverness in a child is making a judgement/an appraisal of their quality. If I said the child was shy would that be a judgement then, i.e. a negative one? Do you only understand judgement in terms of value judgements?

Well perhaps I used the wrong word i.e. criticism. Rest assured I have high self esteem but I am focused on improving myself so I do judge my behaviour if it falls short of my potential. So you still haven't addressed my main point about whether it is O.K to judge others if we view that we are all one, since this is seeing others as extensions of ourselves.
Perhaps someone else can answer this. I would really value a reply because I think it is an important point.

I agree with the words you use. Judgement can be defined as "discernment" or "appraisal"; there's no problem there.
Yet you could simply grab the 1st available tube of toothpaste, or say: "give me whatever you've got".
In such cases discerment and appraisal aren't involved (right?).

I feel criticism can be "beneficial" or "detrimental", and I wonder what has motivated the criticism.
Does the criticism inspire happiness and well-being? Or does it seek to shame and belittle?
What's behind the criticism?

To answer your main point, I would say that everything is "OK"... all that matters is where it comes from.
What is the source of a thing? Does it spring from Love, or does it originate "someplace else"?
What is the basis of a thing (?)... that determines it's value, it's usefulness, it's "OKness".

peace2U

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Neville

As far as my understanding extends, It is only all One on a molecular/sub molecular basis, A Spade is comprised of Atoms, as Is the Coffee table, but you would look real strange digging the garden with a Coffee table.

The gap between our world and any other world is filled only by space.
But "space" is literally "nothing"... so there is nothing separating us from Alpha-Centari (for example).
We are "connected" to the entire Universe. The entire Universe is One.

I don't recommend digging with coffee tables.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

The gap between our world and any other world is filled only by space.
But "space" is literally "nothing"... so there is nothing separating us from Alpha-Centari (for example).
We are "connected" to the entire Universe. The entire Universe is One.

I don't recommend digging with coffee tables.

Space is a density in itself. That's only known in relation to denser objects, but if you consider the universe is motion, change... and that is inter-related... you still are left with constant space. Therefore there is nothing between because space is not different to matter at all, it's simply lower in density.

Originally Posted by dreamt

I don't know if I can answer satisfactorily, but I will add my take on it. I think it's a good question.

I'd say that others are extensions of the self, to the extent that we have knowledge of or relationship to the person or situation in question.

I can make a criticism of self most legitimately, because I know myself better than any other person knows me.
People in relationship may in certain situations find that they have to make a criticism, or communicate something that could be unpleasant if said in the wrong way. So I would say that criticism could be constructive where there is love as a foundation, and so the relationship can continue and grow. In the same way - and as you have pointed out - that when a person is making a self-criticism, ideally there is self-esteem(love) as a foundation.

Thanks for this reply. So are you saying that the 'we are all one' scenario does not mean that others are extensions of ourselves then, i.e. anyone and everyone? (This was my extrapolation for saying that, if I can judge myself - since others are extensions of ourselves - then why can others not be judged too?)

Originally Posted by Gem

Don't you think that there is an awareness of your presence as opposed to what it witnesses in such dreams?

This is a particular type that is different in this way from the 'normal' type.
I'm assuming that most of our dream patterns would be similar (over the course of time at least).
In the normal type, there is some awareness that it's 'me'. It could be very tenuous at times, but there would be clues such as emotions playing out or finding expression. Or I can look at it later in some way and relate it to myself.

This other type is of a more 'removed' quality - landscapes, seas, characters seem beyond human, colour extremely vivid or 'textured' (different than normal).

To try and answer the question - I am not myself or any self I don't think, so it's not one thing being present to another, as such.
The last time it happened was a couple of months ago. It could have been anyone else's dream. I could only locate it to myself after I had woken from it.

Obviously none of this can be discussed objectively, or offered as 'proof' of anything. But thought I'd mention it for consideration anyway as I think it's all part of our experience, learning etc.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by dreamt

This is a particular type that is different in this way from the 'normal' type.
I'm assuming that most of our dream patterns would be similar (over the course of time at least).
In the normal type, there is some awareness that it's 'me'. It could be very tenuous at times, but there would be clues such as emotions playing out or finding expression. Or I can look at it later in some way and relate it to myself.

This other type is of a more 'removed' quality - landscapes, seas, characters seem beyond human, colour extremely vivid or 'textured' (different than normal).

To try and answer the question - I am not myself or any self I don't think, so it's not one thing being present to another, as such.
The last time it happened was a couple of months ago. It could have been anyone else's dream. I could only locate it to myself after I had woken from it.

Obviously none of this can be discussed objectively, or offered as 'proof' of anything. But thought I'd mention it for consideration anyway as I think it's all part of our experience, learning etc.

It's interesting to me because it doesn't profess an answer, it's just the way the dreams are. Sometimes I am a character in my dream and sometimes I'm not part of it. I'm the first person, the third person or I'm just aware of a scenario ... but I can never quite locate myself till I have a cuppa joe.

Originally Posted by amy green

Thanks for this reply. So are you saying that the 'we are all one' scenario does not mean that others are extensions of ourselves then, i.e. anyone and everyone? (This was my extrapolation for saying that, if I can judge myself - since others are extensions of ourselves - then why can others not be judged too?)

A 'we are all one' scenario would have to be defined first and then go from there.
I don't tend to use these terms myself, but my view or understanding is that it's basically about relationship.
We are all in relationship on the level of being human at least, and the things we have in common as humans.
It would be deeper according to groupings, and further in friends, partnership etc.

Looking at the question again, and no matter the definition of 'we are all one', it seems to be mostly just asking about others judgeing someone else for judgeing...
So maybe it could be presented something like this:

A judges B. C judges A for judgeing B.

Is C in a position to judge A?
- or -
Is C equally guilty of the type of judgement it accuses A of?

I don't want to misrepresent it though, so please correct or disagree as appropriate. It's just an attempt to clarify/simplify.