Ending capitalism is possible...

Originally Posted by Tezorian

You say what i wanted to say. Still am, but it's good to see a more indepth reply.
I'm guessing this is where a lot of things go astray. We want to change the world, but we do so in a way that's the same as how the world is being kept this way.
We "force" our own thoughts out there, to be heard, no with a hope to be heard.
"You have to" has never brought change. It has brought obedience. It has brought oppression. It has built a world that's built upon appearances and lies, not truth and equality.

To say "Capitalism is the only way" or "socialism is the best way" are both false. You can't have socialism if the mind is set on capitalism and vice versa.
This truly is the chicken or the egg story. Discussing the pros and cons will get us nowhere.

I read about a professor that did a little experiment to prove why socialism will never work.
He would give everyone the same grade, based on the average of the entire class. This is a very good example why it won't work... RIGHT NOW. But it does clearly show the problem. That it's NOT the system that has the flaw.
The first period, there were people who studied hard and would be sure to get a good grade. A few others thought, i don't need to study, because it's going to be averaged. The result was a B+
Second period, those who didn't study increased and those that did study, didn't study as they did before. Result. C-
Third period, only a few glanced over the material, since it made no difference in the end. The result was terrible and the fourth period everyone got an F.

Conclusion was, this is why socialism is never going to work. But it was not the system that was at fault, or was it?
My view on "socialism" is not just that everyone gets the same, no matter what. It is that everyone does their part, but not because they have to. Because they want to. And THAT is why socialism is not going to work right now. Capitalism is because people have to. Those in favor of capitalism will not agree with those in favor of socialism.

You can call them blind, ignorant, stupid or stubborn, but if you can't calmly discuss a subject and refuse to see their point of view, so are you.

If you had the choice to have everything in abundance and way more than you would ever need or have nothing but be healthy and happy, what would you choose? How can you choose if you do not know what healthy or happy is? Words are words and can never fully describe the feelings or thoughts one has. As such words are nothing but definitions that can differ from person to person.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

If you had the choice to have everything in abundance and way more than you would ever need or have nothing but be healthy and happy, what would you choose? How can you choose if you do not know what healthy or happy is? Words are words and can never fully describe the feelings or thoughts one has. As such words are nothing but definitions that can differ from person to person.

This is what frustrates me so much about the relentless consumerism of western society at the moment...it's like a runaway train that's so quick, it's easy to forget it wasn't this way as little as 20 years ago, maybe even less. We're taught to expect all our needs in some way to be met through our buying habits- self-esteem, hunger, even dating to an extent....I'm part of probably the last generation that did not grow up relying on the immediacy of the internet, I didn't have an email account until I was about 20. There must be a biological consequence of this. We're just not making the same neural connections from our interactions with the world as our ancestors did. How many generations would it take to completely lose what was once common sense?

I'm tired...will come back to this later...

[Tezorian]

Originally Posted by runningwithbutterflies

This is what frustrates me so much about the relentless consumerism of western society at the moment...it's like a runaway train that's so quick, it's easy to forget it wasn't this way as little as 20 years ago, maybe even less. We're taught to expect all our needs in some way to be met through our buying habits- self-esteem, hunger, even dating to an extent....I'm part of probably the last generation that did not grow up relying on the immediacy of the internet, I didn't have an email account until I was about 20. There must be a biological consequence of this. We're just not making the same neural connections from our interactions with the world as our ancestors did. How many generations would it take to completely lose what was once common sense?

I'm tired...will come back to this later...

We (society) want things as efficient as possible. As fast as possible. It's just a never-ending circle. If it's as efficient as can be and it's as fast as possible, then we have more time for ourselves. That's logic, but because everything gets more expensive, the time we had for ourselves, we now "have to" use to do more. Nobody has lost common sense and nobody will ever lose common sense, but in order to allow this common sense to work, it requires us to think. Not just think like 1+1=2, but to figure out, in a way, the solution to a long equation. It's not a difficult one, it's a very simple one. It has a lot of variables though, so it takes some time to "solve" it.

Here it's also where i went astray. I am PART of society, i am not ALL society. I can't change or think for society, as i am just a tiny part of a whole. I can however change myself. That's where it starts. And that was also the reason why i kept going head to head with Chrysaetos. That was the part which i wasn't willing to accept yet. That i can't change society, only myself.
If i just change myself, it's like swimming against the stream. The very thing i'm trying to talk everyone out of, was (is?) the exact same thing (in a way) that i am showing.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

We (society) want things as efficient as possible. As fast as possible. It's just a never-ending circle. If it's as efficient as can be and it's as fast as possible, then we have more time for ourselves. That's logic, but because everything gets more expensive, the time we had for ourselves, we now "have to" use to do more. Nobody has lost common sense and nobody will ever lose common sense, but in order to allow this common sense to work, it requires us to think. Not just think like 1+1=2, but to figure out, in a way, the solution to a long equation. It's not a difficult one, it's a very simple one. It has a lot of variables though, so it takes some time to "solve" it.

Here it's also where i went astray. I am PART of society, i am not ALL society. I can't change or think for society, as i am just a tiny part of a whole. I can however change myself. That's where it starts. And that was also the reason why i kept going head to head with Chrysaetos. That was the part which i wasn't willing to accept yet. That i can't change society, only myself.
If i just change myself, it's like swimming against the stream. The very thing i'm trying to talk everyone out of, was (is?) the exact same thing (in a way) that i am showing.

When I said 'How many generations would it take to completely lose what was once common sense?' I wasn't implying that people are somehow becoming less intelligent, I mean that the common awareness of certain things is lost and replaced with other things as part of this technological cultural shift. My Dad often reminds me how people used to commonly know more about their natural environment, and I think that is a good example of a cultural shift we have experienced in western society...obviously this is accounted for by other factors, but the consumerism of today places less value on it too.

I love how you simplify the logic we use to get more done in the time we have. I often think that this is an illusion that we fool ourselves into thinking, because although we have a more 'efficient' culture in many respects, do we actually use our time well? Do we create quality time for ourselves in the time we have 'left' after getting our chores done, or do we waste it? I found a cartoon in a magazine once which I keep in my notebook as a reminder to stay aware of this- it is of two pictures. In the first picture, a man is being healed by Jesus, with the caption "I can see!!" In the next picture, the same man is nestled on the couch with a beer for a night in infront of the t.v. I find this very interesting to consider. Sometimes I wonder (including myself in this generalisation), are we so efficient that we don't have any energy to do anything with the time we have left? Are we doing too much? Or have we lost the will to really live?

I'm finding this a very interesting thread!

My brother, husband and I often sit and talk politics, discussing the general news and what we could do to change things we disagree with.. One of those being capitalism.. The pros and cons are pretty obvious.. Pro being if there were no capital we would have no hungry or naked... Con to this, there would be no choice.. We would wear the same clothes and eat the same food (allergies aside). So how would we go about fixing this con? My brother suggests credits, in place of money, we work every day and earn credits. All we need as a general public to live is free.. electricity, water, food, medicine, clothes, housing, cable tv and your cell phone.. and in return we all contribute to the civil services, we all have a day where we clean the streets or deliver mail... His credit service goes into play after our basics are covered.. Should you choose to put in more civil service hours or you cover the shift of another employee where you work you earn credits.. If you want a bigger tv, or designer clothes, that trip to disneyworld.. This way positions like doctors or businessmen are filled by those who have a passion for it instead of those looking for more money. Sure, this plan has many flaws but it seems a decent plan... But with getting rid of capital remember the biggest con of all: There will always be greedy men, always be the men that steal and cheat and try to find a way to bend the system to their will. That's why no matter how many ideas we can come up with to better or to change the way things are, it will never happen.

It's all well and good to talk about putting an end to something, but without a positive replacement already organized to take its place, you will just end up with something worse.

I am not a champion of capitalism by any means, but I understand that it has driven many of the advancements that we enjoy in this day and age. Capitalism is a two edged sword, it is neutral in and of itself. There is much good and much bad that has arisen from it. The problem is that those who would use it to further their own ends have no concern for everyone else, and have no inhibitions in their quest to obtain the power for themselves...

But those people will exist whatever system that you put into place. It is only when the gentle and selfless people are willing to stand up and be unmovable that the selfish power-seekers will lose. They will always be there though, and so the selfless will never be able to rest their vigilance.

That is what happened in the US. People felt safe, and let their guard down. The power hungry took over. Now people are trying ever so hard to find a way to undo the damage. Many attempts have been misguided, but at least people are opening their eyes.

[Arcturus]

it is not the system that must change but the person.

[the_crow]

Originally Posted by vecta3

it is not the system that must change but the person.

That is true, right across the board.