Muscle Tension During Meditation

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Kylie<3

Wow. This seemed to get off track. I did t read any of the lengthy posts lol but I just came here to say that I can related the OP question and statement. When I'm meditating here recently Ive noticed that my right hand tightens so intensely that its pointing downwards. Not sure why. I am a massage therapist so I work strictly with my hands. Not sure if it's related or why it's just the right hand, I am right hand dominant. Nice to know others are experiencing similar experiences.

I'd recommend focusing on the area of the tension during meditation and experimenting with different ways of thinking and moving energy through the body, especially around the area of the hand, in an effort to bring about relaxation and relieve the tension.

For example, you can tell yourself that the tension in your hand is relaxing on each in and out breath. Try to feel the muscles relaxing as you do this.

Another example would be to move your awareness from your heart center, down your arms and out through your hands during each breath. Moving awareness through the body is an effective method of stimulating the subtle energies in the body, and passing energy through a particular area of the body has shown to remove energy blocks and tension in that area.

Experiment until you find something that works. Meditation does not have to be a passive experience, despite what you may hear from some.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Thanks Jonesboy

I agree that trying to get Gem to change his mind is likely to be a futile endeavor. Although, my latest post was not just for him, but also for Sunsoul and everyone else who may be reading this thread so that they may have the most relevant information to decide for themselves. My effort at this point is more towards trying to clear up the misinformation that has spread for the sake of all readers.[/quote]

Why would you endeavour to change my mind at all?

I'm totally in support of the relevant information which helps enable people to decide, but there is no misinformation, merely things that contradict your view. My view is contradicted as well, but I don't endeavour to change your mind.

What strikes me here is that Gem and Sunsoul are unlikely to have ever tried the method that they are claiming to be invalid, in spite of the ample evidence I have provided for its validity, not to mention attested to it from my own experience.

I'm not invalidating the method. In fact you just refered to 'misinformation'. I'm merely discussing the observation technique and trying to put reasons why it is 'as it is'.

Gem says that he's experimented with certain volitional activities or "mental fabrications" and finds them not conductive to the "as is" aspect of the insight. I'm guessing this is the basis for his claims:

It is true that by imploring volition, it is no longer just "as it is," but it becomes "as you have influenced it to be." However, this does not prevent deep insight from arising nor does it prevent this insight from being carefully observed. It is a different nature of insight- it's insight into the nature of things in the presence of volitional activity. The purpose is to discover which volitions give rise to wholesome states conductive to progress in the practice, and which volitions eliminate unwholesome states that are not conductive to progress. This strategy is in line with the teachings, as can be seen from the volitions involved in the Anapanasati sutta, and, as I've said before, is experientially valid at producing results.

If you regulate the breath you can not observe the spontaneously occuring breath

If you count the breath you cant observe to spontaneously arising mental activity.

If you visualise, you can not observe spontaneous mental activity.

That's why I don't apply volitionally concocted additions to my practice. I don't want to observe things I made up. I want to observe what is just happening.

Gem, I know that the method you implore does not use volitional actions, and I understand why. The purpose is to see what is, and not change it. I get it, I have done it before. I usually settle into this phase at some point during my daily meditations. I agree that insight can be gained that way. Understand that there are other methods, just as equally valid, if not more valid, as they are more readily found in the original teachings. Understand that bare awareness insight isn't the only kind of insight there is, nor is it necessarily more valid than the insight that arises from volitional activities.

Of course, volition actions can't be maintained for long after a time it falls back into pure observation. Other methods are other methods, but pure observation is by its very definition, non-volitional.

Of course, the sutta I just provided shows that the Buddha did not teach the bare awareness with the breath method, but taught his disciples to use skillfully directed volition along with breath awareness for the highest cultivation of the practice. But again, this doesn't necessarily invalidate the bare awareness method, it just means that the Buddha believed it wasn't the best method according to the sutta. It is referred to as the "dry insight" method, which, as I stated earlier, has been erroneously separated from the rest of the teachings as it's own practice.

The sutta does not seem to say that one should intentionally breath long and intentionally breath short. It says I'm aware that this is a long breath, I'm aware that this s a short breath... I don't think "verbalising" that is a good idea because if one is verbalising that, they will not become aware of the noise that would otherwise be occuring in their minds.

Attempting to ascertain the validity of a practice comes not from making assumptions based on insights gained in a different practice. It comes from giving the practice in question a fair try and seeing where it takes you. I understand that you have found a practice that works for you, and that is great. The error I see here is attempting to invalidate another practice simply because it is different than your own. I don't expect you to change your mind, I am writing this for the benefit of others.

I'm not invalidating other practices, it's just that the reason I give that explains why volitional activity is not conducive in seeing 'as it is' is actually reasonable and makes sense. Some practiced entirely need breath regulation or verbalisation or visualistation, but it isn't constructive in observation techniques because when the volition is enacted one can not observe what arises spontaneously and thus does not see 'what is'. In stead they see what intionally put there. This is no a discredit, it's a reason, and it's either makes sense of it's nonsense.

My advice: Don't adopt a limited or partial view. Become familiar with the broad range of teachings and methods that are available and decide from a place of wisdom.

There's nothing wrong with the practice I am undertaking and I have refined it over time, and will continue without being distracted by other people and the way they practice. If someone woud want to suggest something, then give sensible reasons that stack up, If I saw good reason I would be there, but 'cuz Bhikku said so' is not reason.

If you browse Buddhist discussion forums like the DhammaWheel, you will find that there are rarely claims that one method is superior over another. Most of the more experienced and knowledgeable members (including several Bhikkhus who take part in discussions) agree that it is more a matter of personal preference and natural inclination than an objective "this works better than that" or "this is valid and this is not."

If the intention is to see what is, it's pretty obvious that enacting volition is less effective. 1) regulate breath-the spontaneous 'as it is' breath is gone. That is pretty firm reason. If the intention is otherwise directed, maybe intend to focus the mind, then counting helps and perhaps is better that not counting, but while counting, you will not be aware of the mind 'as it is'. What is valid or effective is entirely dependent on the intended purpose.

Gem, do you have an account over at DW? This discussion would be much better suited over there.

Take care

I don't really want to, even though I'm totally big on Dhamma, I don't identify as a buddhist, and better for me to remain in non-sectarian surrounds. And please, don't be influenced by jones boy's assertions, it's to personalised, and I don't mind controversy, but I'm not partial to personal commentary.

[sunsoul]

This is a very good example of Buddhists in action!! Not.. I think a few people need to take a chill pill.

I have given up getting into endless debates and going in circles. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but don't try and get sunsoul involved!

Just two quick points.. I don't think it is very useful or considerate to post a short message to stick the knife in someone like Gem! If you are going to post do something constructive!!

I also have experience with various meditations, been to monasteries, visited India and Nepal, done retreats, studied religion for seven years at university with a MA in Indian religion, I was president of the Buddhist society at my uni and always encouraged open exchanges and dialogue.. I don't usually talk about this but someone wanted to know about my experience in x method, etc. I know about mindfulness meditation having taught it myself and done controlled breathing as well. Not particularly new to me!

Vince started a long thread on another site about controlled breathing which is heading somewhere as yet unknown.. So, at least we have chopped off some of the tangents that began to appear here.

I have good faith in three of the main protagonists on the Buddhist threads recently, namely jonesy, Gem and Vince. You all have a lot of experience and interesting things to share. I would just suggest that with the New Year you step back a bit and avoid so much arguing.. I know that this site is set up for discussion, of course. But, you know what I mean! I include myself in this!

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

Why would you endeavour to change my mind at all?

Going by some of your statements on this thread, it seemed you held some misconceptions about the teachings of Buddhism, and I simply wanted to help you understand the teachings better. It wasn't about getting you to see it my way, but simply helping you to see the teachings with clarity, as you admitted to having little knowledge of them.

For example, your earlier statements about aversion, the Buddha's teachings being against using volition, abundance of frills and glitter and little of core value in the teachings, fabrications not being included in the suttas, etc. That's just on the second page of posts. Anyway, as I said, it's not just about me and you, it's about providing helpful information for everyone who reads this.

I'm totally in support of the relevant information which helps enable people to decide, but there is no misinformation, merely things that contradict your view. My view is contradicted as well, but I don't endeavour to change your mind.

I believe that some of the statements you have made, particularly the ones I have referred to above, are examples of misinformation. But I wasn't necessarily just referring to your statements when I spoke of misinformation.

I'm not invalidating the method. In fact you just refered to 'misinformation'. I'm merely discussing the observation technique and trying to put reasons why it is 'as it is'.

I understand. It appeared to me as if you were denying the validity of volitional meditation methods, especially in their ability to give rise to insight. Perhaps I misunderstood, my apologies for that.

If you regulate the breath you can not observe the spontaneously occuring breath

If you count the breath you cant observe to spontaneously arising mental activity.

If you visualise, you can not observe spontaneous mental activity.

That's why I don't apply volitionally concocted additions to my practice. I don't want to observe things I made up. I want to observe what is just happening.

I understand your point and agree. If your practice is just to observe what is happening, then volition should not be used, aside from the volition to observe.

I was under the impression that you were making the point that the method you use is the true way of practice, and the method and teachings I have been referring to are inaccurate. I do believe you implied this, for you made several statements that your experience contradicts the teachings and ideas I presented.

The sutta does not seem to say that one should intentionally breath long and intentionally breath short. It says I'm aware that this is a long breath, I'm aware that this s a short breath... I don't think "verbalising" that is a good idea because if one is verbalising that, they will not become aware of the noise that would otherwise be occuring in their minds.

You are right, it does not say to intentionally breathe long and short (although it doesn't say NOT to either). Actually, these are the only two steps out of the sixteen that volition is not specifically instructed to be used. As I explained, starting with step three, the practitioner is to TRAIN the mind, and this entails volition in moving towards the goal of the particular step (3-16). Anapanasati is much more than just passive observation, as is made clear in the Buddha's opening statement before giving the instructions.

Some practiced entirely need breath regulation or verbalisation or visualistation, but it isn't constructive in observation techniques because when the volition is enacted one can not observe what arises spontaneously and thus does not see 'what is'. In stead they see what intionally put there. This is no a discredit, it's a reason, and it's either makes sense of it's nonsense.

Yes. My point has been that the practice of Buddhism as a whole, and particularly Anapanasati, isn't just about seeing what arises spontaneously. It's also about observing the effects of our intentions and actions, whether in meditation or during daily life, and gaining the insight from this to choose those that lead towards the purification of mind.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sunsoul

This is a very good example of Buddhists in action!! Not.. I think a few people need to take a chill pill.

Your perception is askew because no one is distressed (though JB seems a little rash)

I have given up getting into endless debates and going in circles. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but don't try and get sunsoul involved!

Yeah - Keep out of it, you.

Just two quick points.. I don't think it is very useful or considerate to post a short message to stick the knife in someone like Gem! If you are going to post do something constructive!!

Oh I don't care, I been shot at, axe attacked, booted badly and run down. Knives is what I do for fun!

I also have experience with various meditations, been to monasteries, visited India and Nepal, done retreats, studied religion for seven years at university with a MA in Indian religion, I was president of the Buddhist society at my uni and always encouraged open exchanges and dialogue.. I don't usually talk about this but someone wanted to know about my experience in x method, etc. I know about mindfulness meditation having taught it myself and done controlled breathing as well. Not particularly new to me!

Vince started a long thread on another site about controlled breathing which is heading somewhere as yet unknown.. So, at least we have chopped off some of the tangents that began to appear here.

I have good faith in three of the main protagonists on the Buddhist threads recently, namely jonesy, Gem and Vince. You all have a lot of experience and interesting things to share. I would just suggest that with the New Year you step back a bit and avoid so much arguing.. I know that this site is set up for discussion, of course. But, you know what I mean! I include myself in this!

I thing you misconstrue what is said as arguement, it's all peaceful and kind I'm most sure and detect not one shed of contention from Vince. He's a very good fellow and we're, like, deep in the Metta vibe.

You cats get me so curious now I'm tempted to see dhamma.forum... but since I'm not buddhist, there is 'vernerable everybody', so I have no authority of Bhikkhu.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

I thing you misconstrue what is said as arguement, it's all peaceful and kind I'm most sure and detect not one shed of contention from Vince. He's a very good fellow and we're, like, deep in the Metta vibe.

Yea man you gettin that vibe too!?

You cats get me so curious now I'm tempted to see dhamma.forum... but since I'm not buddhist, there is 'vernerable everybody', so I have no authority of Bhikkhu.

Here is a link to the thread I started about this issue:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=22557

You don't need to be a member to read the posts, and you don't need to be a Buddhist to become a member, take part in discussions, and learn from others.

The title of Bhikkhu does not necessarily indicate authority. Rather, it signifies one's dedication to the path, which eventually leads to a high degree of experience and insight, and so the opinions of Bhikkhus is generally valued for that.

[Gem]

Dang you guys. You got me. I'm gonna go read the thread (and to mention, I do at least look over the links that you recommend, Vince, and fully intend to listen to all the Sutras.)

[Seekerofsolace]

Originally Posted by TaoSandwich

Viking,

If your body tightens up in meditation, I tend to go with the thought that it needs to tighten and let it do what it needs to do. It might also be interesting to alter your meditation practices (no binaural beats/isochronic tones, no focused breathing, no visualization, some of the above, none of the above, etc).

My biggest point, though, is this: There are many descriptions as to "why" your body does this and that during meditation... Blockages of qi flow, kundalini blocks, etc. Don't give them too much thought. Instead, focus on how your body and psyche feel during and after meditation. THAT will tell you more than any description that others provide. In time, you will know what these sensations mean in the context of your own unique spiritual path. Until then, wait, and treat other peoples' explanations as interesting thoughts that may or may not be totally irrelevant to your own spiritual experience.

-TaoSandwich

What a helpful tip! It is amazing the knowledge you come across when you need it.

[VikingWarriorOnWheels]

Thank you, Gem. I am finding that if I just relax and go with the feelings, they eventually pass and are replaced with a light, "clear" sensation, like I've decompressed and can fully relax :)

[The Back Seat]

Sometimes we try to force the light through as opposed to letting flow on its own. This will make muscles tense. When I catch myself doing this, I stop myself, and turn my focus back to my breathing, and begin again in a more relaxed manner.