Anattā (no self)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Doing something to achieve something, even what people project as Buddhist or advanced spiritually somehow, is still an assertion of person or ego. Selflessness means just that. Being in this present moment without person.

That is also the essence of the satipatthana text where it refers to 'this is body', 'this is mind'. It implies not-me, my, mine, I; and some translations say that explicitly (I personally prefer the translations that say 'understanding impermanence', but each to their own).

Any compulsion to move from this space of clarity and emptiness through a projection of person is discarded.

Pretty much, or iow, all phenomena are 'just phenomena'.

This projection of course always involves thought and conditioning and it involves making the mental world a part of now and of self.

Mindful practice will reveal exactly how you generate kamma (volition) and perpetuate rebirth.

So speaking of doing all these various practices. Breathing, meditating... that creates a person...

Mindful practice is essentially the cessation of all volition, and cessation of volition is the end of person. Granted most teachers are instructing volitional activity, and also merely repeating what their own teacher said as the narrative of the tradition, but the real art of mindfulness is pure observation of 'what is', which is cessation of volition, which is cessation of kamma, which is cessation of rebirth, which is the end of 'person'.

the one doing these things and benefiting from such things. I'm not saying one cannot benefit from such things. .. but one will not benefit from remaining in person compared to the alternative.

There are a lot of ways a person can make their lives better. But what Buddha was talking about was benefiting from becoming person-less, selfless. In this way of being, one does not assert person. There is nothing to do and nothing to become.

Pretty much.

One realizes no one is here to become or do anything. The person is an illusion. A creation between consciousness and thought.

Buddha's path is not about practices, it's about the discovery of what one is and the absolute peace and freedom that comes about from that realization.

Buddha taught the way of mindfulness, but his narratives mostly talked about 'what it is' rather than 'how to do it'. His discourses that instructed meditation method are ways to formalise mindfulness, but if you don't know 'what it is' the formal instructions are not 'the way to do it'. Usually people undertake the practice before realising what it is, and this is seen in how hard it is to convince people to stop 'doing stuff'. This is exacerbated by teachers instructing volitional activity such as counting breath, controlling breath etc, which of course, is not instructed by Buddha according to satiatthana or anapana sati.

This is all in Buddha's story. How he did all the practices and got nowhere.... where he was eating one rice piece a day....

The story is Buddha realised extremes were not right, and that there is a middle way. Then he went on to teach 'right meditation'. You will find that all the teachers from non-duality teach meditation practice, and one common thread is, 'just look' with the bare attention and find out 'what is'.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sky123

' but one will not benefit from remaining in person compared to the alternative '
How do you know this Rain?
' it's about the discovery of what one is '
Isn't this ' One ' a person?

Depends what you mean by person. You are still the one you know yourself to be, but grounded in the present moment, and aware of when thoughts intrude. How do I know? Through experiences. The attachment to the "person" is what prevents enlightenment.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by janielee

Good to know that Rain95 doesn't breathe -

I was referring to having a breathing practice to achieve or seek or desire something.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

Been trying to come to grips with - what Anatta is.

When people get so uptight about the ‘right’ Buddhist practices – yet you see that those very ‘right practices’ are still based on the so called self-view ……. This is very frustrating, dukkha.

'Right meditation': you can continue running from unpleasant and chasing pleasure, or you can stop and look.

If you start to validate the ‘rightness’ of mere rules and regulations and start reciting the teachings like a tape-recorder (when they haven’t produced insights) – you end up fortifying the self-view base.

If you start to engage in debates – you end up fortifying your self-view.
Like the futility of whose self-view is more righteous …….

*

Buddha apparently had said: “I engage in the practice and I espouse the principle of no contention”.
This contention becomes especially futile if the self-view with aversive tendencies is merely looking for an object in order to validate itself with.
Equally frustrating is the self-view with clinging tendencies merely looking for an object to cling to in order to validate itself with ….. to overcome self-view insecurities etc.

So the question is “What is the right thing to do in the situations like this”?

I have been listening to these long and winded speeches that deal with this dilemma from Theravāda Buddhist point of view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu72HVvqI6M

*

I'll watch that.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sky123

.

How can a non-person interact with the world as did Buddha, am I missing something

The way I am using that word "person" in the negative is two fold. It is what you are projecting inward as yourself and what you project outward as yourself.

For example: One may carry around this idea they want to be more spiritual. This idea and belief of course is not always present or foreground. When this person is watching tv, or going out to eat with friends etc it lays dormant, forgotten. But then every once in a while it pops up and they say, I will go sit in my meditation room and do this or that.... work on being spiritual. Work on seeking to change, work on having experiences. This is an example of projecting "person" inward.

"Person" here is thought created reality. Conceptual life. The idea I exist as "someone" and this "someone" is this or that (more reality created by ideas, by thought and thinking - memory - conditioning - all of that) and so this "person" manufactured by thought is the "doer."

Then projecting person outward, an example of this is someone suggesting you go eat somewhere, and you say, "oh no that place looks dirty, I won't eat there." They say "I eat there all the time it's great! Lets go!" And you say, "If that's where you are going count me out, I'll just go eat alone at home." This is an example of projecting person outward. Here again, one is ruled by thoughts. Thoughts become experienced reality.

Without paying attention to these thoughts, a "person" is still there. People around you will still know you as you. Though you will appear less opinionated, less confrontational, more open minded, more easy going. more at peace in yourself. You will also still know yourself as yourself. But you will be free of the noise in your mind, free from conflict, resistance. Grounded in the present moment. Fully aware here and now and free of minds influence.

So that's what I mean by the "person" one drops. The self created by thought, belief, opinions, conditioning. But yea when you are not created by thought you are still there and even can be said to be a "person." Others viewed Buddha as a person. But Buddha's "person" was not created by thought or memory or the conditioning of the past. That emptiness within, which was full, was the base or core from which he acted.

One learns to let go of thought. So self awareness, self knowledge, is present. One is aware of more, knows more, and this knowing or knowledge, this understanding is what acts, is what projects inward and outward. So it is still similar to "person" but the base has changed. Before the base was thoughts, beliefs, habits, memories, and now the base is self understanding, known or experienced insights, present moment awareness. The base or source of inward and outward projecting has changed. So what the "person" is has changed. This new person seeks, desires, but it is not conceptual. It is wholly based on the known. One is not seeking or desiring the unknown or an idea or a concept. They are seeking and desiring what they have experienced as insights into their own true nature.

But all of this old person stuff, it exists in the body and the brain. So being "person-less" is a full time job. One has to be aware of what is present in each moment to transcend it, to not be touched by it, to not have it become phenomenal or experiential reality. So one must be present and awake. This is also like pealing an onion, there are many layers to it. One does not become free all at once. Different layers are noticed, awareness becomes aware of this and not that. So "enlightenment" is a gradual process. One can be liberated from these things and not those. One can have insights that show more advanced letting go, then the insight leave and one is back in the old patterns. So one begins again, in this moment, to find ones way back, to see what is missed. To more fully implement the insights into each moment and experience and into what is projected inward and outward.

Originally Posted by sky123

How can a non-person interact with the world as did Buddha, am I missing something

What is the "world" one is interacting with? Is it one's thoughts, beliefs, conditioning, or just what is here now, inherently present, without concepts and ideas intruding.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sentient

So the question is “What is the right thing to do in the situations like this”?

Sometimes I listen to teachers for insights and knowledge. Other times teachers just reinforce my ego and thought based seeking and create conflict in me so I stop listening to them. Sometimes I get insights on these forums, other times they push me into my thought and thinking too much so I have to take a break.

It's like sitting down with a good spiritual book or listening to a guru is sometimes good and sometimes bad. It's related to where you are listening from, how whatever you are reading or listening to is being interpreted by you. What it is creating or reinforcing in you. Sometimes words or teachings lead us more into our thoughts and inner conflict, other times they lead to inner silence and freedom from inner conflict.

Sometimes a talk by a guru is good, other times just a long walk alone contemplating is good. Other times just spending some time not thinking at all is good. Spending time just listening, looking, and not speaking or thinking or interpreting.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Rain95

The way I am using that word "person" in the negative is two fold. It is what you are projecting inward as yourself and what you project outward as yourself.

For example: One may carry around this idea they want to be more spiritual. This idea and belief of course is not always present or foreground. When this person is watching tv, or going out to eat with friends etc it lays dormant, forgotten. But then every once in a while it pops up and they say, I will go sit in my meditation room and do this or that.... work on being spiritual. Work on seeking to change, work on having experiences. This is an example of projecting "person" inward.

"Person" here is thought created reality. Conceptual life. The idea I exist as "someone" and this "someone" is this or that (more reality created by ideas, by thought and thinking - memory - conditioning - all of that) and so this "person" manufactured by thought is the "doer."

Then projecting person outward, an example of this is someone suggesting you go eat somewhere, and you say, "oh no that place looks dirty, I won't eat there." They say "I eat there all the time it's great! Lets go!" And you say, "If that's where you are going count me out, I'll just go eat alone at home." This is an example of projecting person outward. Here again, one is ruled by thoughts. Thoughts become experienced reality.

Without paying attention to these thoughts, a "person" is still there. People around you will still know you as you. Though you will appear less opinionated, less confrontational, more open minded, more easy going. more at peace in yourself. You will also still know yourself as yourself. But you will be free of the noise in your mind, free from conflict, resistance. Grounded in the present moment. Fully aware here and now and free of minds influence.

So that's what I mean by the "person" one drops. The self created by thought, belief, opinions, conditioning. But yea when you are not created by thought you are still there and even can be said to be a "person." Others viewed Buddha as a person. But Buddha's "person" was not created by thought or memory or the conditioning of the past. That emptiness within, which was full, was the base or core from which he acted.

One learns to let go of thought. So self awareness, self knowledge, is present. One is aware of more, knows more, and this knowing or knowledge, this understanding is what acts, is what projects inward and outward. So it is still similar to "person" but the base has changed. Before the base was thoughts, beliefs, habits, memories, and now the base is self understanding, known or experienced insights, present moment awareness. The base or source of inward and outward projecting has changed. So what the "person" is has changed. This new person seeks, desires, but it is not conceptual. It is wholly based on the known. One is not seeking or desiring the unknown or an idea or a concept. They are seeking and desiring what they have experienced as insights into their own true nature.

But all of this old person stuff, it exists in the body and the brain. So being "person-less" is a full time job. One has to be aware of what is present in each moment to transcend it, to not be touched by it, to not have it become phenomenal or experiential reality. So one must be present and awake. This is also like pealing an onion, there are many layers to it. One does not become free all at once. Different layers are noticed, awareness becomes aware of this and not that. So "enlightenment" is a gradual process. One can be liberated from these things and not those. One can have insights that show more advanced letting go, then the insight leave and one is back in the old patterns. So one begins again, in this moment, to find ones way back, to see what is missed. To more fully implement the insights into each moment and experience and into what is projected inward and outward.



What is the "world" one is interacting with? Is it one's thoughts, beliefs, conditioning, or just what is here now, inherently present, without concepts and ideas intruding.

I think once you let go of the mind sorting and gathering you take the leap into what fits you through all this.

Your still a thinking feeling, seeing human being with likes and dislikes. If anything when your not attached to thoughts, the waking walking life experience is simply walking aware. Non attached and less contained by everything in ones head.

The world one is interacting with, is the one that interacts as himself aware and more conscious continually.

The points of clarity move you into life as those realizations.

The realisations are the ways in which you now live through them. If your clear and open to the truth as an active engaged person, living it as the way for you, then all other thoughts or conflicts are no longer contained. You know yourself aware and realised.

The practice is living your realisations.

What doesn’t fit falls away.

Your not contained.

I think one of the difficulties for a predominate thinker processor, is that the mind continues to build itself long before the being has integrated it as an actualization and way of being. The perceived seperation of you being more than one person, ends as well. You are the ‘one’ as a whole integrated being. Seperation leads you to believe your losing a person in you, whereas it’s the old identity your letting go of.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

I was referring to having a breathing practice to achieve or seek or desire something.

I'm the only one who talks about breath awareness, but also ending seeking and craving. Indeed, the moment one observes, 'this is how it is', seeking has ended, and there is no desire because breath 'already is'.


To discover what is is an achievement, but it has nothing to do with 'something I want'. If you right now pay attention to what your hand feels like, you find out what it is like, you stop everything so you can 'look' and there's no desire for it feel the way you want it to. You just want to know what's true - 'this is what it's like'.



The problem is running a narrative that just accepts a miserable life without investigation into the truth of misery, how you create your misery, and how misery is overcome. That is just a 'spiritual excuse' to continue in ignorance and delusion.


Better practice meditation in the right way which is not complacent, but ardent. One has to understand the effort is not half torn between desires and aversions, but utter and complete in purpose.

Originally Posted by sky123

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How can a non-person interact with the world as did Buddha, am I missing something

This is Buddha's first sermon:

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the group of five monks (bhikkhus):

'Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced by one who has gone forth from the household life. (What are the two?) There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy and unprofitable.

Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (The Perfect One) (2) has realized the Middle Path; it gives vision, gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment and to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata….? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. This is the Middle Path realized by the Tathagata which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment, and to Nibbana.

https://www.buddhanet.net/bp_sut17.htm

And for decades he preached his teachings and practice, but on these forums, it's much more acceptable to pretend you are at the end, fortified by others in the position, self congratulating each other whilst unable to deal with real people or real views

What a person! (which is apparently a synonym with "human being")

Sorry to get you in trouble sky123

JL

Originally Posted by JustBe

I don’t understand why you respond as you do.

If your so aware of the basic instructions of Buddhism and proper translations, you wouldn’t be flooding the forum with such siding as you do.

Flooding = posting to authentic sources and teachers. Telling that you see it the way you do.

JL