Zen Anybody

[Joe Mc]

Zen has the best stories,and it has poetry. It has formality and informality. Square Zen and Beat Zen was an idea that was around during the beatniks adventures with poetry and writing. Need I say it referred to the formal Zen training structure which included Zazen, Ritual and Koan practice and things of that nature. Beat Zen on the other hand, as opposed to square Zen, referred to a type of skepticism with everything a questioning, not to mention some drug taking lol.

It may seem obvious to say but Zen seems to be unique in this regard when compared to other schools of Buddhism. It has an iconoclastic aspect to it that doesn't exist amongst say Theravadin Buddhism or Mahayana Buddhism. This is debatable of course and one could easily argue that Tibetan Buddhism in the form of the Vajrayanic path has 'crazy wisdom' which sometimes completely leaps outside the rules of formal training.

Anyway I was just wondering also why there are not so many threads here, if any, on Zen Buddhism ? It seems like the Buddhist Forum has become a hot bed ,with no disrespect meant, to the crossing the 't's' and dotting 'i's of classical theravadin buddhistic debate. It almost feels to me sometimes that you have to be a librarian or an expert in Pali Canon classifications to be part of ? But I know some of that feeling is my own lack of education in that regard so please forgive me.

So perhaps this thread could be open to Zen Buddhism, stories anecdotes, personal stories, poetry , zazen, snowballs, thieves, alcoholism or none of the above or all of the above ? Perhaps there could be a place for Zen after all or not as the case may be ?

Kind Regards, Joe

[sky]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Zen has the best stories,and it has poetry. It has formality and informality. Square Zen and Zen was an idea that was around during the beatniks adventures with poetry and writing. Need I say it referred to the formal Zen training structure which included Zazen, Ritual and Koan practice and things of that nature. Zen on the other hand, as opposed to square Zen, referred to a type of skepticism with everything a questioning, not to mention some drug taking lol.

It may seem obvious to say but Zen seems to be unique in this regard when compared to other schools of Buddhism. It has an iconoclastic aspect to it that doesn't exist amongst say Theravadin Buddhism or Mahayana Buddhism. This is debatable of course and one could easily argue that Tibetan Buddhism in the form of the Vajrayanic path has 'crazy wisdom' which sometimes completely leaps outside the rules of formal training.

Anyway I was just wondering also why there are not so many threads here, if any, on Zen Buddhism ? It seems like the Buddhist Forum has become a hot bed ,with no disrespect meant, to the crossing the 't's' and dotting 'i's of classical theravadin buddhistic debate. It almost feels to me sometimes that you have to be a librarian or an expert in Pali Canon classifications to be part of ? But I know some of that feeling is my own lack of education in that regard so please forgive me.

So perhaps this thread could be open to Zen Buddhism, stories anecdotes, personal stories, poetry , zazen, snowballs, thieves, alcoholism or none of the above or all of the above ? Perhaps there could be a place for Zen after all or not as the case may be ?

Kind Regards, Joe

' Anyway I was just wondering also why there are not so many threads here, if any, on Zen Buddhism '


Because it's based on Wordless Teachings

[sky]

Toward the end of his life, the Buddha took his disciples to a quiet pond for instruction. As they had done so many times before, the Buddha’s followers sat in a small circle around him, and waited for the teaching.

But this time the Buddha had no words. He reached into the muck and pulled up a lotus flower. And he held it silently before them, its roots dripping mud and water.

The disciples were greatly confused. Buddha quietly displayed the lotus to each of them. In turn, the disciples did their best to expound upon the meaning of the flower: what it symbollized, and how it fit into the body of Buddha’s teaching.

When at last the Buddha came to his follower Mahakasyapa, the disciple suddenly understood. He smiled and began to laugh. Buddha handed the lotus to Mahakasyapa and began to speak.

“What can be said I have said to you,” smiled the Buddha, “and what cannot be said, I have given to Mahakashyapa.”

Mahakashyapa became Buddha’s successor from that day forward.

Background to the Flower Sutra
The Flower Sutra is a sutra in the Zen (or Chan) tradition of Mahayana Buddhism. It's earliest versions date from the 11th century. Zen Buddhism stresses wordless insight more than most other types of Buddhism. This sutra exemplifies that very well.

In many versions of this sutra the Buddha doesn't walk around, he merely holds up the Lotus, roots and all, to a group of disciples. Most disciples are confused.

Mahakashyapa smiles.

To Zen Buddhists this sutra shows the origins of the wordless teachings of Zen - its history started with the Buddha himself.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by sky123

Toward the end of his life, the Buddha took his disciples to a quiet pond for instruction. As they had done so many times before, the Buddha’s followers sat in a small circle around him, and waited for the teaching.

But this time the Buddha had no words. He reached into the muck and pulled up a lotus flower. And he held it silently before them, its roots dripping mud and water.

The disciples were greatly confused. Buddha quietly displayed the lotus to each of them. In turn, the disciples did their best to expound upon the meaning of the flower: what it symbolised, and how it fit into the body of Buddha’s teaching.

When at last the Buddha came to his follower Mahakasyapa, the disciple suddenly understood. He smiled and began to laugh. Buddha handed the lotus to Mahakasyapa and began to speak.

“What can be said I have said to you,” smiled the Buddha, “and what cannot be said, I have given to Mahakashyapa.”

Mahakashyapa became Buddha’s successor from that day forward.

Background to the Flower Sutra
The Flower Sutra is a sutra in the Zen (or Chan) tradition of Mahayana Buddhism. It's earliest versions date from the 11th century. Zen Buddhism stresses wordless insight more than most other types of Buddhism. This sutra exemplifies that very well.

In many versions of this sutra the Buddha doesn't walk around, he merely holds up the Lotus, roots and all, to a group of disciples. Most disciples are confused.

Mahakashyapa smiles.

To Zen Buddhists this sutra shows the origins of the wordless teachings of Zen - its history started with the Buddha himself.

Yes the Flower Sutra as it is often referred to, is widely considered in some way to be the first 'Zen Teaching', the beginning of that lineage if you like. Others consider the Enlightenment of the Buddha under the Bodhi Tree to be the first Zen teaching.

The word Zen means meditation and is derived from the Sanskrit word Dhyana via the Chinese word Chan. To describe the path of Zen as a 'wordless' path is not that accurate. The path of Zen is Direct but not wordless I would say, it's emphasis resting on it's oral tradition and the relationship between Student and Teacher.

The pointing and breaking through to 'Reality' known is Zen as Kensho ( Seeing one's true nature) is often marked by sudden and abrupt communication between Teacher and Student, between Student and nature etc. It is not wordless in that sense. It might be described as poetic, enigmatic, far reaching, paradoxical or any number of words or phrases but it is not wordless as such. Zen Koans are short phrases or single words that a Zen student drops into their own mind through silent repetition to somehow help them realise Kensho, or have a Kensho if you like.

One such Koan would be : Show me your original face, the face you had before your parents were born. Again it's enigmatic and not logical but i'm going to say it's not wordless. Gassho.

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[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by sky123

' Anyway I was just wondering also why there are not so many threads here, if any, on Zen Buddhism '


Because it's based on Wordless Teachings

refer to my answer on the Flower ceremony

[sky]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

refer to my answer on the Flower ceremony

It was meant as a joke

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by sky123

It was meant as a joke

ok !!!!

[jonesboy]

Zen seems to be misunderstood a lot. A few years ago there was a lot of talk about Zen.

I believe Bodhidharma said the only Sutra you need is the Lakavatara Sutra. It is my favorite Buddhist Sutra, unlike any other.

I started a thread on it so that we could all try to learn from it but it went downhill fast.

I think there might be some Bodhidharma sermons/teachings in the section that I have posted as well.

Excellent stuff and look forward to you posting more about it.

[Phaelyn]

A lot of Zen teachers say forget about sutras and teachings and just focus on now and your experience. That's what is awesome about Zen!

Even responding to what I wrote above can be basically being lost in ideas and opinions and beliefs, which are just another form of sutras and teachings. Ideas....thoughts....ideas...... ya not Zen!

Just observe, that's all.....if you come up with a comment, you are in ideas again. Really YOU did not come up with a comment, your brain did, your conditioning and mental habits.

Questioning one's own thoughts can be very freeing. I was asking myself earlier why I was thinking a particular thing and I questioned the ethics of it and could clearly see it was not ethical. Why would I think such an unethical thing? Well I didn't think it, it was presented to me by my brain. Brain bad!

If more humans questioned their very own ideas, maybe this world would be a far kinder and nicer place. Like the persons who invented nuclear bombs and power, wish they could have questioned their own ideas and concluded making such things is wrong. Or the people playing around with deadly virus's in labs. How bout destroying them instead of testing them and keeping them alive? Yea would have saved millions in this case imho.

Humans, while the most intelligent animal on this planet, can also be incredibly stupid and self destructive. Humans have invented and created so many things that are killing ourselves and our planet. Someday, maybe the human race will go a little deeper and think of love and others, and not just money and violence, when they decide what to create with their precious time.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

In turn, the disciples did their best to expound upon the meaning of the flower:

It's kind of funny for those disciples to look for the "meaning" in mental words, thoughts, and images. Better to perceive the beauty of the lotus, and the light upon it, and everything that exists and is here now, and to perceive that wondrous mystery and lightness of being. The meaning is there is no meaning, just being in awe of the magic and beauty of this now. Well plus Buddha was right there holding that lotus! Those disciples were a foot away from the living Buddha! Feel the meaning of that!