Joint pain and inflammation

[Podshell]

Originally Posted by Ravenspirit

Q? You don't believe you are killing when you eat veggies? Did you know that tomatoes scream when picked? They've put low level mics on them and electrodes. They do. Plants don't have feelings like humans but they do respond negatively to being harvested. I'm not judging you. I couldn't care less what other people eat. It's not for me to say, but I'm a confirmed meat eater, not just because of choice but out of biological necessity and I find it very hard when people tell me that everybody is adapted to eat vegetarian/vegan.

No offense, but I cannot do it without making myself very ill. Even with a top class vegan nutritionist and chef advising me and making proper and wonderful meals for me I got very, very ill trying. I truly cannot digest a lot of things that are primary to a vegan/vegetarian diet. On a diet that's 75% meat on the other hand I pretty much thrive. Either I am a biological freak or some people are adapted to be carnivores. If you can do it, wonderful, but I just don't think it's fair to make a statement like that. It's just not the case, for everyone.

Most fruit develops to be picked it helps with the dispersal of seeds for the plants, that is what fruits are for! they must be mistaken when it comes to the fruit, maybe it wa unripe?


I find it hard when I am told I should eat meat , which is what hapopens in general in our societies. My statement is that it is wise to regulate meat if you eat meat, or if it is not for simply the taste of the meat then why not wait until the animal dies naturally before eating it's flesh? for instance there most be many dairy cattle that will expire of old age.

[Podshell]

nummi


I don't think it is safe to assume we ate meat from the beginning of creation, at least not loads of it, in the official Vedic scriptures for example the cow is like a partner to the human race and is used for milk production not meat although I believe occasional sacrifices were made, in the bible too meat sacrifice is regulated then later it is ordered to be done away with altogether.

PHYSIOLOGICAL COMPARISONS between carivores, herbivores and man


http://www.harekrishna.com/col/books...t/chapone.html


It is not irrelevent what other animals physiology is as they have basic diets, bodies that are designed for them, not like us who can choose almost anything.

Many studies show improved health with a vegetarian diet

http://time.com/9463/7-reasons-vegetarians-live-longer/

We don't need meat and I for one have done 15yrs+ hands on research on this, I know in part how my body works and have experimented with diets (of course it is a massive subject and lots of ongoing lessons to be learnt) also by learning of how it has benefitted others (especially the animals!) You have tried your type of meat diet for twenty months, I don't think that is long enough to be able to make a valid conclusion yet, I know because prior to becoming vegetarian I tried stopping and starting meat eating.

You mention 'Briefly' this can be good and bad, I mean I have tried my present diet for fifteen yrs, but prior to that on occasions ate meat briefly, this provided an energy boost, but could have lead me into a trap of eating it too regularly.(Bit like a glucose rush I suppose, no good too often, or even not needed even occasionaly)

If B12 problem developes one can simply take suppliments, it can happen in heavy drinkers, and I would take B12 or have it injected even from animal sources if it was causing me bad health problems, I mean I'm not daft if it was a choice between my life and an animals I would choose mine, but I wouldn't eat them each day for pleasure, or a faulty belief in some health thing of meat being essential for a large part of diet

[Podshell]

I like the taste of some plants, but if I was given a choice to go and pick types of plants or kill an animal myself to survive I would go for the plants, especially if it was a milk producing animal. only a fool would kill a food supplier. Plants dont have much of a nervous system so the suffering is less, in any case it can be offered and used as a necessity to keep the body functioning. Milk and its products are very good and also there is always spare grains


please also note that my problems at this present time stem from overindulgence in alcohol specifically beer/ale which is a main culprit for the formation of uric acid

Here is a list of trouble causers (Ten seconds RESEARCH on google!!)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/26...ic-acid-foods/












This is Karma nummi

http://protectacow.typepad.com/.a/6a...0f17970b-popup

[Miss Hepburn]

Thank you, Podshell!

One time a very large man in his 60s had severe gout for days...
I went to my trusty book and told him to take Omega 3s...
next day gout was gone! Shocked even ME!

Little crystals...ouch!
Take care.

[Podshell]

I made the mistake of including fish in my diet a few years ago , it helped at first but again I may have overdone it with it and had some opposite effect.

here it says the oil is better

http://www.arthritis.org/living-with...h-oil-gout.php

Purines are found in the meat of the fish but not in highly purified, molecularly distilled fish oil, so it should not affect your gout. I recommend everyone consume at least 2,000 milligrams (mg) per day of EPA and DHA (two fatty acids in fish oil crucial to human health). Those with autoimmune disorders and arthritis should consume 3,000 to 6,000 mg in divided doses with meals.

(perhaps if absolutely necessary I will take small amounts of the oil, but the other foodstuffs and beer avoidance worked very well)

[nummi]

Originally Posted by Podshell

...

There's a significant difference between you and I. I rely on my own mind, while you rely on others opinions without thinking the opinions through on your own. Simply parroting what those you regard as superiors have said, and this no doubt subconsciously. At least regarding diet.

That you give links (that take me to other people's opinions but not yours) to try to justify your opinions when it is so clear that they are wrong, shows so clearly you haven't made your own mind regarding this.

At least regarding diet:
Personal research, observation, experimenting, experience, comparing, thinking. Please do these without being influenced by opinions external to yourself. These lessons you have not yet learned. You have opinions that are influenced by others, but as yet you do not have opinions you can regard as truly yours without lying.

I don't use external links (external opinions) to try to justify my own opinions. That you have to use external links to justify your own shows you are wrong and you don't really know what you are talking about.

What would you have said if you couldn't post links? Would you have used your own words?

If you want to "debate" these things, then I suggest you make a separate thread.

[Podshell]

There's a significant difference between you and I. I rely on my own mind, while you rely on others opinions without thinking the opinions through on your own. Simply parroting what those you regard as superiors have said, and this no doubt subconsciously. At least regarding diet.

The difference is that I do both, I accept there are some people more expert than myself and that there exist some authorities on certain subjects. doing it your way on the hoof would take many lifetimes to come to some conclusions.

That you give links (that take me to other people's opinions but not yours) to try to justify your opinions when it is so clear that they are wrong, shows so clearly you haven't made your own mind regarding this.

I say and accept that some are more expert than myself so I will link to them (I am not saying they are perfect and I am not saying things do not change particularly where diet is concerned and the tampering that goes on with it)

Personal research, observation, experimenting, experience, comparing, thinking. Please do these without being influenced by opinions external to yourself. These lessons you have not yet learned. You have opinions that are influenced by others, but as yet you do not have opinions you can regard as truly yours without lying.

It is wise to be influenced by others particularly if you have tested them and realised they are trustworthy, I mean I could imply that you are influenced by the meat industry , I don't think you are, but why should anyone have ulterior motives for promoting a non-meat diet? not much profit there.

I don't use external links (external opinions) to try to justify my own opinions. That you have to use external links to justify your own shows you are wrong and you don't really know what you are talking about.

It shows I accept some others may know more than me, I also have learnt by trial and error and realise some other people are correct

What would you have said if you couldn't post links? Would you have used your own words?

I do use my own words, ( even though they are not always spelt correctly)

If you want to "debate" these things, then I suggest you make a separate thread.

The thread could be about saving time by finding bona fide systems and people that have already experimented and communicated and come to a conclusion on human diet in general.

As I realise though it is an ongoing process, mainly because we have allowed big business to tamper and I can understand why you believe what you believe, many vegetable crops have been tampered with and poisons added, many have less nutrients now, so it would be easier to find a food source via meat , it is more difficult to get pure unadulterated full spectrum vegetarian food as opposed to meat products, or rather you need less of the meat and can probably afford small well sourced amounts...but all this brings me back again to accepting authorative wisdom , and the root cause of this problem is simply mans love of money, and that is stated by an ancient authority, we should not have had to suffer to learn this lesson.

[Tobi]

If people feel they need to eat meat then that is up to them. Or if they have a system which can only accept animal protein and cannot benefit from non-animal protein -that is up to them. Some people have illnesses and peculiarities which mean they cannot properly assimilate vegetable protein.
I have found vegetable-based protein no harm to me whatsoever over a number of years. I have no joint inflammation whereas many of my age (62) do have such problems. My family has a history of joint inflammation also. However, they were all regular and heavy animal protein eaters.
There might be other factors to take into account such as general lifestyle. I am more active and flexible than they all were. That might have something to do with it. But I wonder if the acidic nature of the food they ate might have contributed to the joint problems? And uric acid build up?
By the way I have no nutritional deficiencies. Blood tests confirm it also.

[nummi]

Originally Posted by Tobi

But I wonder if the acidic nature of the food they ate might have contributed to the joint problems?

This acidic food thing is nonsense. Whatever you eat, it always gets treated with load of stomach acid in the stomach.
It's the minerals body needs, not alkalinity or acidity. Minerals.

The lack of minerals can and does cause these health issues. Though other things can contribute as well, like vitamin deficiencies.

By the way I have no nutritional deficiencies. Blood tests confirm it also.

Blood tests don't show everything. For example magnesium, only about 10% is in the blood, the rest in other body cells.
Do they do body cell analysis? Sure, if you pay a lot...
If you rely on blood tests to say whether you are deficient or not, then you have no idea whether you are deficient of something or not.
Plus that which the blood shows. Blood might show that you're not deficient, but what is going on in the body cells? Maybe body cells are deficient of that which blood is not.
Blood test alone doesn't show the whole truth.

[nummi]

Originally Posted by Podshell

I accept there are some people more expert than myself and that there exist some authorities on certain subjects.

You simply take the word of those people without thinking it through on your own?
How are you supposed to verify, for yourself, whether what they say is true or not, if you in yourself do not possess, at that time, anything that could show that they are right, or that they are wrong?

doing it your way on the hoof would take many lifetimes to come to some conclusions.

On what do you base that "my way" would take many lifetimes?
I ask because I can see and I know it would not take many lifetimes.

These things I have found out thus far about diet, health, the world in general. I did not know these 2 years ago.
I have found out by researching, trying, observing, comparing, thinking. How else would you hope to find the truth? If you're not following some dogma, then things move quickly.

(Assuming I got it right what you meant by that sentence...)

It is wise to be influenced by others particularly if you have tested them and realised they are trustworthy, I mean I could imply that you are influenced by the meat industry , I don't think you are, but why should anyone have ulterior motives for promoting a non-meat diet? not much profit there.

A lot of profit there... Agriculture business is far wider and far more destructive to health and planet than meat-industry.
(Doesn't apply to very few people) If you don't eat meat, quality meat not poisoned, then your brain can't work right nor optimally. You'll be slower of mind and harder to come to truthful conclusions.

I've seen many meat-avoiders "discuss" things. The sight was awful. Even in this forum in the vegan subforum there were such individuals - they couldn't keep themselves civil and calm even as I tried to discuss things peacefully and calmly. They are oblivious to their own minds workings and sayings. The things they say without seeing what they say... The contradictions, the lies, the shortsightedness, the ignorance, the blindness, the ignoring and avoiding relevant facts and points, etc. All with a punch of severe arrogance. Awful.
And they are prevalent throughout society. You don't see people eating an almost entirely carnivorous diet so spread out everywhere forcing their opinions. Nor do you see the same from omnivorous dieters (who genetically we all are, so this should say a lot... why even try to explain it? we are genetically all omnivores). Should make one wonder why is that... Should really make one wonder what is up with almost all meat-avoiders, why do they generally tend to such bad behavior?

It shows I accept some others may know more than me, I also have learnt by trial and error and realise some other people are correct

Regarding trial and error. It takes months to try something out, and there are very many things to try out to get a truthful conclusion. If you begin your trials from a too wrong angle...
I got "lucky"... I got it mostly right with the first time around. So there were simply corrections to make, not a complete overhaul. The right things "fell to my lap" at the right time - this has happened again and again since.

What I see meat-avoiders generally do is try out meat-avoiding, coupled with other changes they disregard completely in the final conclusion. Then they notice short-term improvements, which are caused not by avoiding meat but by those other changes. Then, disregarding the other changes, they make up their mind that avoiding meat is the right thing to do. Then long-term effects start manifesting... But since they've made their mind, and this kind of dieting makes brain very hard to work right, they won't be able to see themselves easily. Thus stuck in a loop, and if someone tries to bring out their faults, lies, contradictions, etc., then they get so angry and so arrogant.
Not all, as on some avoiding meat works, as their bodies are built in a way it can work. But all the rest...

The interesting thing about most meat-avoiders is that when you get down to it, they have very little to nothing to say. And use the opinions of others to justify their stance - which is absurd. This should also make one wonder. If they are so "right", then why have they so little to nothing to say, and if they do say something they cannot do it in their own thoughts? (As you can see, I explain and explain, could go on and on. My own thoughts and words.)

I do use my own words, ( even though they are not always spelt correctly)

Perhaps I should've been more accurate.
I meant using your own words to describe your own opinions.
But I suppose first you need the ability to discern what is truly yours and what is not.

The issue I noticed is that you say the same general things, with the same general tone, that majority of meat-avoiders say. You exhibit too similar qualities. This is the issue. (And so I give explanations and ask for explanations. But usually it's only me giving explanations but not receiving any...)
You have essentially asserted that avoiding meat, or eating very little of it, is the best thing for everyone. When the truth is this is not true. But sure, it could be true, but not on this planet and not at this time with the present plants.

The thread could be about saving time by finding bona fide systems and people that have already experimented and communicated and come to a conclusion on human diet in general.

Yes, have come to a conclusion. But a conclusion based on what? Based on lies and half-truths - this is the issue. Thus the conclusions themselves either lies or half-truths.

I can understand why you believe what you believe

You can't and don't. You've shown you can't and don't.

What do you mean by "believe"? Because the way I define "believe" does not apply to me. I don't believe anything.
I either perceive or know based on previous perception. No belief.

, many vegetable crops have been tampered with and poisons added, many have less nutrients now, so it would be easier to find a food source via meat

Those animals eat what? Those same poisoned and deficient plants? In that case in no way can the resulting meat be nutrient rich and give enough what the body needs.

, it is more difficult to get pure unadulterated full spectrum vegetarian food as opposed to meat products

Full spectrum vegetarian food does not exist on this planet. Because on this planet, at this time, there are no plants that contain all the nutrients the human body needs, in the quantities it needs them.
Obviously I'm not talking about the very few individuals who can, because their bodies are somewhat different, but all the rest who cannot.

, or rather you need less of the meat and can probably afford small well sourced amounts...but all this brings me back again to accepting authorative wisdom , and the root cause of this problem is simply mans love of money, and that is stated by an ancient authority, we should not have had to suffer to learn this lesson.

I don't love money. I'd rather be without, but the people need to catch up first. Though I am finding ways to use less and less of it, while not suffering the reduced "need" of it, and actually living better and better.
Money restricts freedom, it gets in the way of life.
Money was introduced to humanity thousands of years age, and not for the good of humanity. There are more ways than one to learn the same lessons. Money has never been needed, and never will be.