Dependent origination

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by sentient

^
Didn’t Buddha also teach that it is not a matter of ‘belief’ …. i.e. believing or not-believing in something – but rather finding out - for yourself, by yourself – the truth of “what is” through first-hand experience.
Besides, beliefs are mental concepts, preconceived ideas veiling the open and empty questioning of or into “what is”, which one can only do ‘on the spot’ …. as it – whatever it is – is happening.

But of course these Buddhist teachings (as conceptual communication) do point to the areas and to the direction which we need to focus our open and empty questioning on if we do want to follow the Buddhist path.

*

All “spiritual teachers” need to be scrutinized, observed for their transparency (for the lack of a better word), but until we have that firsthand experience, rumours are just rumours and ad hominems.

We do not know the person nor the circumstances until we do.

*

The main point or the issue being ….
Is there any validity or value to the “moon”, which the “finger” (Mooji and some others) are pointing at?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0eJSz1SuRs

*

I think it’s important in the truth of every individual, regardless of what the finger (mooji and others) are pointing too (as being valid and true) that they consider how it ‘feels’ in them, inclusive of this as additional truth. The ‘source’ in which truth flows through or from, is important in the greater awareness of ‘you’ as the ‘whole truth’ being revealed.

If you ‘trust’ in what has been offered, considered it as a truth for you, the finger pointing to something truthful, will source itself another way and in another form if it comes to be. In this way their develops a more ‘expanded awareness’ of which I’m certain in my ‘feeling’ awareness of, ‘gem’ is very aware and considers much through the ‘lived experience’ like myself. In my observations he considers things important through others and life, as I do, some things do require you to observe deeper through others as they are and trust in yourself to do so. Trust and move accordingly, for you. The totality of any given situation affects. The whole picture paints itself into all of us, when one is open to it all, their is awareness that cannot be overlooked. Once aware, it’s always considered.

The lived/human experience is an integrated relationship no matter who it is relating a greater truth. It all fits the ‘whole’.

If a ‘source’ conveying is integrated and clear in their own emptiness, there is a ‘pure’ and ‘clear’ seeing and ‘feeling’, it is through that clarity that one can be integrated beyond the ‘human’ containment of those guiding others in some form. Those playing ‘roles’ as leaders, those impacting others as they are. We can’t know what is moving through others in their process, so it’s up ‘us’ to understand and know our own containment.

Even as something cannot be known of another, if it’s presented to you without ‘true knowing’ more directly as first hand, knowledge, it would be wise to look within and consider the implications of such things within yourself, to see how clear you are in that knowing.

In my view of clarity in me, their is no seperation between the ‘teacher’ and ‘student’ so if one is not being totally honest with themselves in those greater truths they are pointing too, it’s a playground of further entanglement if such issues arise with more than one party entangled.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

I presume you would just tell me I'm finding happiness in sadness though?

No not me. Some other posters were saying there was no good or bad or right or wrong or something like that. I totally believe in right and wrong, good and bad, and peace or conflict. I think I would say inner and outer peace and spacious emptiness, freedom from ideas or a need to be something or someone, rather than happiness though. Happiness sounds kind of like an emotion rather than a state of being. Happiness sounds like something someone has, and I'd rather not even have a someone involved. No inner voice at all. Nothing imagined or created with my beliefs that can have something or want something, like happiness. "Being" present in this now as a nobody/nothing has zero to do with anything I could post. Posting is being all caught up in words and ideas. Like in a minute after I post this I can go back and look at it, there will be zero interest in it. The whole thing is like a foreign language. It has no meaning in it. I will have no interest in reading it and thinking.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

but of course we can go round and round in circles, disagreeing on what words make sense and what words don't.

I don't think what I am talking about has anything to do with words though or anything I post. Words are just noise, mental static. They are not important at all to what I am talking about. Neither is religion or philosophy or any beliefs. I find peace in being selfless. No goals, no beliefs, no path, no practice, but then everything I just said is my belief and path and practice... So yea what words make sense?... probably none. But then, when has there ever been sense in words? Like that saying, sometimes I sit and think, sometimes I just sit. Why does there have to be a person inside me, as me, to get all caught up in things? Somebody says something to me and I'm supposed to have an opinion, a reaction, but yea why? I'd rather just be in awe of this mystery that is always around me. Standing on this ground and looking up at the sky knowing it goes on forever. These people around me, saying stuff to me, what are they? It is mysterious. How did I get here? Why do I exist? Who or what am I or them? I don't know anything at all. So why should I pretend to know how I am supposed to be or react to this or that. Call me a name, slap my face, why should I care? Happy, sad, what do those words even mean? There is just now, a perception that is always changing. I am perceiving all of it without words or ideas about it. Light, love, silence, noise, sensation, people exerting energy and belief in various ways. it's all a dance or a play then it's over and we are dancing somewhere else as something else. What did all of this mean then? It seems to mean a lot now, but it really doesn't. Why do we even need a meaning or purpose? Who or what is the authority that tells us what we must believe or why we have to believe anything? Just look, listen, and be, not as something or someone, just like a leaf in the wind that has no preference for what it is, or does, or goes. Sorry for the stream of consciousness typed out here. That's what this mind does when my attention is on it, thoughts flow out like an endless river. I bet it could go on forever if I let it. It's like opening a high powered water hose onto the lawn and the water making this huge mess, then in a few hours all the water is gone, absorbed into the earth, going up into various plants that have a use for it.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

In the above example, you obviously know about the things you are speaking about. You have understanding of these things. You are aware of aversion and desire and have had experience and so you have understanding of how it comes about and how it ceases. You know one to be better than the other. You prefer equanimity and non-reacting to aversion and desire and reacting.

The main problem is I can't really have equanimity because 'equanimity' is a word that describes the absence of reactivity, or 'craving'. The other issue is, if you are adverse toward craving, this, in itself, is craving... this is how the topic becomes complex, nuanced and phenomenological.

You know aversion and desire and reaction leads to conflict. You do have a preference or desire for equanimity! But yea you don't seek equanimity directly as it comes on its own. It is a side effect. The awareness or understanding of "I am reacting and I don't have to," or seeing the reaction and me are two different things in other words, results in equanimity or non-reaction.

Yes, I guess we can conceive of it in that way!

You have stepped outside "this" interpreted through a mental filter, as an idea, a preference for what "this" is or should be. Ironically, however, your preference and understanding of non-reacting made non-reacting possible. If you had no experience or insights into equanimity, so that you did not know of it to prefer it, you could not conjure it up through magical awareness slight of hand. Turning the brains habitual ego reactions into nothingness. Turning potential conflict and aversion into peace and acceptance.

It was mostly through the meditation practice that I realised how I reacted to the sensations I felt, and how that related to resistance etc, and impeded not only the quietude of the meditation, but the whole process of purification.

I don't have an aversion to saying I desire peace within and without. The conflict is not in that statement of fact. The conflict is in how one thinks they can achieve that thing. It is not a doing, it is a "not-doing." I am doing what prevents it. I need to become aware of what I am doing that prevents it. So it is a seeing, an understanding, more awareness of what is here now as an actuality and as a potential. Like in your tense shoulder example. Everything was done in the awareness the tension was there.

Yes, you become conscious of 'what you do' rather than 'know not what you do', so if you mean what I interpret you as saying, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Well it is a desire for a state of equanimity. That was the motivation to be more aware in the present.

I think we have to conceptualise will in 2 ways. The first way is how desire/aversion incites willfulness, i.e. try to make it the way you want it to be. The second aspect of will is willingness, which is the cessation of willfulness. It does not do away with intent, you see, willingness is also an intent in its own right, but it is only being ardent about the truth.

Without the memory and the corresponding preference of the equanimity experience, there would be no energy expelled to notice when it was not present. When you noticed the shoulder was tensed, you "knew" of the potential of experiencing it without tension. You were aware of the relaxed state. You had a memory/experience of it. Having a memory and preference for the relaxed not tensing state led to you ending the tensing. Seeing the tensing as a bad thing, a thing preventing the preferred experience.

In the meditation halls I would go over the body to feel what it is like, and I noticed I had a tendency to tense up my legs, as I observed that part of the body I know "this is tension" and in that moment also cease doing that. I'd go on to examine other parts of the body-feeling and later return to find I had unconsciously tensed up my legs again. On deeper inspection I realised I tense my legs due to an unconscious adverse reaction to discomfort in my hips, and by tensing up, relieve the discomfort (making it as I want it to be). Hence, I don't consider the tension to be bad, there is nothing wrong with it at all, but I do learn a deeper aspect through it, the reason I do it, and know more about myself in that process. After a time, once I had noticed this tendency, which was signifying a deeper, more pervasive tendency of 'craving', it became very apparent to me and no longer could get by me unawares, and it stopped as I came to peace with the discomfort in my hips. Indeed it was the cessation of desire/aversion, reactivity or craving with regard to the feelings that ended the tendency of tensing, but I did have to become conscious of the tension, then conscious of the reactive process behind it. Once I was clearly conscious of it, it stopped. Then I could experience the pain in my hips without any reactivity, or the activity of tensing (same thing), and because I was willing toward the discomfort, had no desire for it be other than it was... The impetus or urge or the volition to make it otherwise through tensing completely ceased to occur. Of course I can remember that it used to occur, but rather than prefer it doesn't, I lost the preference of comfortable hips, and thus has no reason to tense up my legs.

In that moment of noticing tensing is also a memory of how non-tensing experience is, so one chooses to end tensing. If one did not know non-tensing experience, there would be no motivation to end tensing or to even know it was possible. Using that metaphor, non-tensing the shoulder is like non-reaction, we have to "know" what equanimity experience or non-reacting experience is like. Maybe we had it as a child. Maybe it is there between thoughts. Maybe we got glimpses of it from teachers or practices or insights in this life time. However we begin to know it, eventually we do. Then over time we begin to seek it more and more, to have more interest in it, so our awareness increases because it is only in noticing what we are doing, that allows us to stop doing, and let the other experience and way of being come into existence. I think we are always chasing pleasure and happiness. This stuff is just seeking it in subtle ways. Every way we seek it has a down side, so we refine and refine, how to get pleasure and happiness with no downside. This is like end game stuff. How to be happy no matter what is happening externally or internally.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

The main problem is I can't really have equanimity because 'equanimity' is a word that describes the absence of reactivity, or 'craving'. The other issue is, if you are adverse toward craving, this, in itself, is craving... this is how the topic becomes complex, nuanced and phenomenological.

But then all of that is imaginary isn't it? None of it actually exists now apart from my imagination. There is just this now moment, then all of that/this internal thinking. Streaming words across the screen of our consciousness and saying look, this is what is going on. But it is not describing anything that is going on. What is going on exists apart from the ticker tape of words that flows seemingly endlessly inside our heads. We look at the ticker tape and assume we are describing what exists, but we are just taking the words in our heads and typing them out on a keyboard, or saying them aloud to others. or saying them to ourselves. We are making the chatter in our minds reality. I tell you the words in my head, you tell me the ones in yours and back and forth it goes. But the real world is there/here with or without those words. The words don't actually affect it or describe it. We can be here now, present to what is and have no interest in the chatter in our minds at all. We are present to this now experience as it is when we are not mentally interpreting it and experiencing it through the filter of belief.

Can equanimity exist if I don't go into the conceptual abstract word based reality in my mind? But then one may say, wait, I need a map, a word based construct to know whats what. Without the word based interpretation, how can I be on a journey from the past to the future? How do I know who I am? Who you are? But that's just it, the real world as it is, apart from our mental coloring of it, our interpreting it conceptually, creating it and ourselves as a mental construct, it just is. We just are. We are creators. We create this person, inflict this person on others, inflict it on ourselves, experience it endlessly. But this person is a imaginary creation. No person is here. There is just this now, and this ticker tape of words streaming across our minds, and we choose to focus on that stream of words and create a person out of it, an experience out of it, to go into the imagination and believe all that stuff, the stream of words, is reality and some kind of truth and it is but only because we make it so. We look there, in words, in ideas, to know what this is. We create our reality and our experience out of these words.

The mystic comes along and tells us to just be. Drop becoming mind. The mystic has found this other way to be and tries to tell us about it. But we can't find it because we can't imagine it. We don't know about any reality apart from the one we conjure up with our thoughts. So the mystics world is added to to our stream of words which is our chosen reality. No matter what the mystic says, we look for it within our mentally created self and reality.

How do we step out? If one asks that question they still have their eyes fully on their imagination, there are no questions apart from our minds. There are no words. There is only the mystery and wonder of life and experience. We can create this experience as well. By ending the creation of the other.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the meditation halls I would go over the body to feel what it is like, and I noticed I had a tendency to tense up my legs, as I observed that part of the body I know "this is tension" and in that moment also cease doing that. I'd go on to examine other parts of the body-feeling and later return to find I had unconsciously tensed up my legs again. On deeper inspection I realized I tense my legs due to an unconscious adverse reaction to discomfort in my hips, and by tensing up, relieve the discomfort (making it as I want it to be). Hence, I don't consider the tension to be bad, there is nothing wrong with it at all, but I do learn a deeper aspect through it, the reason I do it, and know more about myself in that process. After a time, once I had noticed this tendency, which was signifying a deeper, more pervasive tendency of 'craving', it became very apparent to me and no longer could get by me unawares, and it stopped as I came to peace with the discomfort in my hips. Indeed it was the cessation of desire/aversion, reactivity or craving with regard to the feelings that ended the tendency of tensing, but I did have to become conscious of the tension, then conscious of the reactive process behind it. Once I was clearly conscious of it, it stopped. Then I could experience the pain in my hips without any reactivity, or the activity of tensing (same thing), and because I was willing toward the discomfort, had no desire for it be other than it was... The impetus or urge or the volition to make it otherwise through tensing completely ceased to occur. Of course I can remember that it used to occur, but rather than prefer it doesn't, I lost the preference of comfortable hips, and thus has no reason to tense up my legs.

An extreme metaphor for all of that would be I am a cook in a restaurant and I want to make the boss happy, so he doesn't yell at me, by working as fast as possible as that is what he wants. Well one day I notice I am always unconsciously looking around for a pot holder to use to pull the hot rack out of the oven. This is adding seconds to my cooking time which adds up. It's faster to just use my fingers. I realize I burn my fingers a lot by not using a pot holder, so that is why I unconscionably am searching around for a pot holder to pull out the hot rack. I found out by being aware of this unconscious "desire" to not be burned, I could ignore it and thus, never waste time looking for a pot holder. By being aware I was doing this, avoiding getting burned, the impetus or urge or the volition to not get burned through looking for and using a pot holder ceased to occur. Now I just accept getting my fingers burned a lot and the pain from that as a part of the job. I'm fine with it. A higher awareness of my unconscious actions has allowed me to be faster at work!

The body was basically telling you to not sit like that as it caused pain. It was reacting unconsciously to the pain by tensing. It wanted to move out of that posture/position to stop the pain. You cared more about the sitting in that way than the pain, and as we are the captains of our ship, you found a way to ignore what the body does, which is to avoid self harm and pain. It's like how a shy person will avoid other people, out of unconscious fears, but then they end up really lonely. So they can learn to become aware of these fears, become aware of how these fears are leading to choices that create loneliness, and thus, chose to act in a different way. The ultimate goal to end loneliness or self isolation. Happens through more understanding of ourselves and our behaviors and actions and more self awareness.

A similar thing to do is to realize letting our attention be in thought or present to "the talking" (story - interpretation) in our heads may create conflicts within and without, and therefore with the preference to be without conflicts, we cease letting our attention go unconsciously onto/into thinking. Use thoughts when we need to, accept it is necessary sometimes, but then drop the activity when not needed. Thought then is a tool and not an identity.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

An extreme metaphor for all of that would be I am a cook in a restaurant and I want to make the boss happy, so he doesn't yell at me, by working as fast as possible as that is what he wants. Well one day I notice I am always unconsciously looking around for a pot holder to use to pull the hot rack out of the oven. This is adding seconds to my cooking time which adds up. It's faster to just use my fingers. I realize I burn my fingers a lot by not using a pot holder, so that is why I unconscionably am searching around for a pot holder to pull out the hot rack. I found out by being aware of this unconscious "desire" to not be burned, I could ignore it and thus, never waste time looking for a pot holder. By being aware I was doing this, avoiding getting burned, the impetus or urge or the volition to not get burned through looking for and using a pot holder ceased to occur. Now I just accept getting my fingers burned a lot and the pain from that as a part of the job. I'm fine with it. A higher awareness of my unconscious actions has allowed me to be faster at work!

The body was basically telling you to not sit like that as it caused pain. It was reacting unconsciously to the pain by tensing. It wanted to move out of that posture/position to stop the pain. You cared more about the sitting in that way than the pain, and as we are the captains of our ship, you found a way to ignore what the body does, which is to avoid self harm and pain. It's like how a shy person will avoid other people, out of unconscious fears, but then they end up really lonely. So they can learn to become aware of these fears, become aware of how these fears are leading to choices that create loneliness, and thus, chose to act in a different way. The ultimate goal to end loneliness or self isolation. Happens through more understanding of ourselves and our behaviors and actions and more self awareness.

I think the key word is avoid but during the meditation process I just became peaceful with the feelings I experienced as opposed to to reacting to them, and whereas a novice is squirming around with discomfort (avoiding it), the adepts are still in their body and mind. This is not because the adepts do not experience discomfort but because their tendency to react has subsided. Then you feel things and it's 'just feelings'. On the grosser level it seems like these feelings endure for some time, but when the mind becomes more sensitive in perception, feelings are a myriad of minute sensations which pass in miliseconds, and the deeper 'understanding' of impermanence enables deeper equanimity of the mind.

A similar thing to do is to realize letting our attention be in thought or present to "the talking" (story - interpretation) in our heads may create conflicts within and without, and therefore with the preference to be without conflicts, we cease letting our attention go unconsciously onto/into thinking. Use thoughts when we need to, accept it is necessary sometimes, but then drop the activity when not needed. Thought then is a tool and not an identity.

From my perspective it's not really a preference. Even though no one wants to suffer and everyone wants to be happy, wanting to be happy doesn't make it so. Miserable people are desperate to be happy to no avail, but its possible settle into the experience as it, not because you have to do that, but because that it is actually the case. This is where I claim meditation is finding out whats true regardless of the kinds of experience. The only issue with that is it requires a lot of attention, so we have 'meditation'.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

during the meditation process I just became peaceful with the feelings I experienced as opposed to to reacting to them,

But then sitting still in some posture for whatever reason one is doing that has nothing to do with this "non-reaction." Somebody could be working in a factory, know nothing about Buddhism, and do or discover the same "non-reaction" to whatever arises in them as far as resistance to what is. I call it a preference for no conflict within or without, happiness in other words, joy, inner peace, inner silence, liberation from mind and resistance. One could argue without "Buddhism" to let someone know such things are possible, one would never seek or discover such things and I think there is some truth in the need for one to become aware of the possibility of such things. But one could hear about them in many places besides Buddhism, like from some non-religious persons like Tolle or Krishnamurti. I would guess what we are talking about could also be brought forth through "surrender" teachings as well so one could also get to the same place through teachings about that, which would include Christianity and Taoism. I would also guess given enough lifetimes and experience, one could also come upon it that way as well with no external "teachers or teachings".

Originally Posted by Gem

From my perspective it's not really a preference...I claim meditation is finding out whats true regardless of the kinds of experience. The only issue with that is it requires a lot of attention, so we have 'meditation'.

A preference for no preferences. A preference for finding out whats true. A person could have a preference for saying nothing they have or do is preference related, but then it doesn't matter what words and ideas we are attached to and so repeat over and over as we can be in the current moment non-attached to these habits and well worn groves in our thought patterns.

Basically, everyone is the same. A consciousness that is making an experience/perception/state of being, out of what is content is present in any given moment. This stuff we are talking about, is a certain experience/perception/state of being, that is a potential all can have/experience/be. One just needs a preference for it. One has to have a dis-satisfaction for the current experience/perception/state of being, and therefore be looking for a different one. To have no conflict within or without, no stress, is definitely a "higher" pleasure than the opposite, so then why doesn't everyone just choose that? Well because they don't know it exists as a potential in the present. That it can be had here and now. In fact, the awareness it exists as a potential choice in this now is what brings it into being. To be aware it exists as a potential now one needs insights into self, insights come from experience, thus many lifetimes. Somebody could be full of love now, liberation, selflessness, or full of hate, caught up in emotions and conflict, and completely selfish, just two identical consciousness (with different quantities of awareness/understanding) making choices about what to make phenomenal from all the content available in the current moment.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

But then sitting still in some posture for whatever reason one is doing that has nothing to do with this "non-reaction." Somebody could be working in a factory, know nothing about Buddhism, and do or discover the same "non-reaction" to whatever arises in them as far as resistance to what is. I call it a preference for no conflict within or without, happiness in other words, joy, inner peace, inner silence, liberation from mind and resistance. One could argue without "Buddhism" to let someone know such things are possible, one would never seek or discover such things and I think there is some truth in the need for one to become aware of the possibility of such things. But one could hear about them in many places besides Buddhism, like from some non-religious persons like Tolle or Krishnamurti. I would guess what we are talking about could also be brought forth through "surrender" teachings as well so one could also get to the same place through teachings about that, which would include Christianity and Taoism. I would also guess given enough lifetimes and experience, one could also come upon it that way as well with no external "teachers or teachings".

I think the formalisation of sitting practice reveals the reactive tendencies and distraction, and you realise, like, 'Oh, I see now. This is what I've been doing in my life".

A preference for no preferences. A preference for finding out whats true. A person could have a preference for saying nothing they have or do is preference related, but then it doesn't matter what words and ideas we are attached to and so repeat over and over as we can be in the current moment non-attached to these habits and well worn groves in our thought patterns.

Basically, everyone is the same. A consciousness that is making an experience/perception/state of being, out of what is content is present in any given moment. This stuff we are talking about, is a certain experience/perception/state of being, that is a potential all can have/experience/be. One just needs a preference for it. One has to have a dis-satisfaction for the current experience/perception/state of being, and therefore be looking for a different one. To have no conflict within or without, no stress, is definitely a "higher" pleasure than the opposite, so then why doesn't everyone just choose that? Well because they don't know it exists as a potential in the present. That it can be had here and now. In fact, the awareness it exists as a potential choice in this now is what brings it into being. To be aware it exists as a potential now one needs insights into self, insights come from experience, thus many lifetimes. Somebody could be full of love now, liberation, selflessness, or full of hate, caught up in emotions and conflict, and completely selfish, just two identical consciousness (with different quantities of awareness/understanding) making choices about what to make phenomenal from all the content available in the current moment.

I think the importance people place on choice is misguided in the sense that if experience is chosen, then 'this' is already the choice. The way we usually conceive of choice is to 'see what is' and try to make it 'as it ought to be'. I say just be aware of 'this' 'as it is', and I think you'll find you don;t choose that, of if you do, you have done so already. This implies that if there is desire, this is already what you actually desire, so there is no reason for desire at all.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

I say just be aware of 'this' 'as it is', and I think you'll find you don;t choose that, of if you do, you have done so already. This implies that if there is desire, this is already what you actually desire, so there is no reason for desire at all.

I'd say just do whatever makes you a more loving and happier person. That's really the goal of all religions, even Buddhism. More at peace within and without.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'd say just do whatever makes you a more loving and happier person. That's really the goal of all religions, even Buddhism. More at peace within and without.

' Id say just do whatever makes you a more loving and happier person.'


And if whatever make you more loving and happier hurts others?
Buddhism is much more than doing what makes you more loving and happier....