Dependent origination

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Thank you for the explanation.

In Buddhism there are Trance States ( Dhyana ) maybe something similar, not sure as I have haven't looked into it as yet, maybe later

[sentient]

Here is one explanation.

But still even a simple Mindfulness of Breathing "Shamata" can lead to progressive levels of absorption to trance .....

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religio...a-trance-state

DHYĀNA (TRANCE STATE)
Dhyana (Pāli, jhāna) is a trance state experienced through particular meditative practices. According to traditional Buddhist thought, there are eight trance states. These are divided into two categories: The first four dhyānas are part of the realm of form, and the final four are part of the formless realm. The division between the form and formless dhyānas is not absolute; the higher formless dhyanas (trance states five through eight) are themselves considered a division of the fourth dhyāna belonging to the realm of form. Thus, the eight dhyanas form a continuous hierarchical structure.

The practice of mental concentration (śamatha; Pāli, samatha) is the condition for the meditative experience of these trance states. As mental concentration increases, the practitioner gains entry to increasingly higher levels of absorption. This progression is a process of stilling or calming mental states and achieving the joy of tranquillity and peace. In the fourth dhyāna all sensations are extinguished, resulting in a state of equanimity. The attainment of the fourth dhyāna gives access to the four formless dhyānas, the states of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, and neither-perception-nor-nonperception. The fourth dhyāna, characterized by equanimity and one-pointedness, also gives rise to a set of supernatural powers, including the power to know one's former lifetimes.

The experience of trance states is not viewed as an end in itself, but rather a means to the final goal of nirvĀṆa. The levels of dhyāna are categorized as conditioned and impermanent and thus ultimately unsatisfactory. The experience of absorptions are temporary; they last only for as long as the mind remains concentrated. When concentration ends, the unwhole-some qualities of the mind return and the blissful feelings experienced in the first four dhyānas cease. For these reasons, the experience of trance states is to be joined to the cultivation of prajÑĀ (wisdom; Pāli, pañña). The mental transformation accomplished through the experience of the dhyānas prepares the mind for training in wisdom and the specific practices of the cultivation of insight, vipaśyanā (Pāli, vipassanā). Concentration can also be pursued together with insight as each absorption is experienced and then transcended when it is analyzed as impermanent.

There is a parallel between dhyāna as interiorized meditative states and as cosmological heavenly realms. The first four dhyānas correspond to the seventeen heavens of the realm of form, resting above the lower heavens of the realms of desire. The four higher dhyānas correspond to the four levels of the formless heavens, the uppermost realm of the cosmos. Dhyānas can therefore be experienced for temporary periods through meditative concentration or for longer durations through rebirth into one of the form or formless heavenly realms.

Dhyāna is also defined in relation to a ninth realm higher than either the meditative or cosmological levels of absorptions. This state of the cessation of perception and sensation is attained by those who join perfected concentration and insight.

[sentient]

Such a bad sound quality, but imo. here Theravada & Mindfulness practice (merits etc. etc.) starts to make sense ...... :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpPz22DMRS8

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P.S.
To add a great - enjoyable talk!
The (what I called “the pig”) ….. 'wilful ignorance' looks up to the sky i.e. is no longer ignoring open space …..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tfct_zW88A

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[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sentient

P.S.
To add a great - enjoyable talk!
The (what I called “the pig”) ….. 'wilful ignorance' looks up to the sky i.e. is no longer ignoring open space …..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tfct_zW88A

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I liked his story about how half went to a California spa and half went to a Buddhist retreat and they tested them after and the ones who went to the spa were much more relaxed.

Then he says it would not happen at his retreats because...

number one, we don't aim to get somewhere, instead our purpose is to be more fully where we already are

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

In Buddhism there are Trance States ( Dhyana ) maybe something similar, not sure as I have haven't looked into it as yet, maybe later

Trance states are much different.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sentient

Here is one explanation.

But still even a simple Mindfulness of Breathing "Shamata" can lead to progressive levels of absorption to trance .....

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religio...a-trance-state

This is one of the dangers of using non-Buddhist sites for Buddhist definitions.

I doubt you will find Dyana to mean a trance state anywhere. I have never run across the term trance with Buddhist teachings.

The mental exercise known as meditation is found in all religious systems. Prayer is a form of discursive meditation, and in Hinduism the reciting of slokas and mantras is employed to tranquilize the mind to a state of receptivity. In most of these systems the goal is identified with the particular psychic results that ensue, sometimes very quickly; and the visions that come in the semi-trance state, or the sounds that are heard, are considered to be the end-result of the exercise. This is not the case in the forms of meditation practiced in Buddhism.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...ory/bl015.html

You will only find a couple articles at access to insight about trance and none of the are referring to it in a positive light.

Here is another reference.

As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Uttara, does the brahman Parasiri teach his followers the development of the faculties?"

"Yes, master Gotama, he does."

"And how does he teach his followers the development of the faculties?"

"There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties."

"That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear."

When this was said, the young brahman Uttara sat silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. The Blessed One — noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words — said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one is something else entirely."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....152.than.html

[sentient]

Phaelyn .....
Bridging the paradox.
Imo. Mahamudra teachings are great for that.

Why don't I see it? Why am I not it? Why am I not experiencing it?
Because your paying attention to something else, making yourself
something else through identifying with it, choosing to experience something else.

We are perception. If we choose to perceive the lower, the higher is
blocked from view.

Yes, basically .......I think so too ..... We willfully choose duality ...

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Originally Posted by jonesboy

I doubt you will find Dyana to mean a trance state anywhere. I have never run across the term trance with Buddhist teachings.

Trance as in transcendental states ……
You’ve never entered into meditative absorption so deeply that you’re gone, your thoughts are gone, your will is gone ….. ?
And how to make all that ‘workable’ … ?

Once again I find it totally puzzling why you state your opinions as if they were the “law” onto the land.

Books don’t resolve this issue – experience does ….

What on earth does ‘trance’ mean to you (your conceptual mental map), since you do not recognize it in jnanas?

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[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sentient

Phaelyn .....
Bridging the paradox.
Imo. Mahamudra teachings are great for that.



Yes, basically .......I think so too ..... We willfully choose duality ...

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Trance as in transcendental states ……
You’ve never entered into meditative absorption so deeply that you’re gone, your thoughts are gone, your will is gone ….. ?
And how to make all that ‘workable’ … ?

Once again I find it totally puzzling why you state your opinions as if they were the “law” onto the land.

Books don’t resolve this issue – experience does ….

What on earth does ‘trance’ mean to you (your conceptual mental map), since you do not recognize it in jnanas?

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Yes I have but we are talking about specific terms about specific states of mind within a tradition that has been tested for thousands of years.

You go with the experts say not what you think it means with your limited experience.

In Buddhism meditation is not a trance plain and simple. Meditative states and the realizations are not trance states.

Even talking Hindu, samadhi is not a trance.

Trance is an abnormal state of wakefulness in which a person is not self-aware and is either altogether unresponsive to external stimuli (but nevertheless capable of pursuing and realizing an aim) or is selectively responsive in following the directions of the person (if any) who has induced the trance.

That is not meditation..

I am not the law on Buddhism but it is pretty simple to do a little research.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Yes I have but we are talking about specific terms about specific states of mind within a tradition that has been tested for thousands of years.

You go with the experts say not what you think it means with your limited experience.

I disagree.

What do you think the thousands and thousands years old Siberian/Saami Shamanism is?
It is a spiritual culture specializing in trance.

There are many ways to get into and utilize transcendental states.
And those videos I posted show that they are spot on in aspects ….. and those aspects we do share even if the words are different ….

What they were talking about is familiar ground for me ....

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[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Trance states are much different.

Yes I have had a look and they are different, the Dhanas /Jhanas are sometimes described as Trance States though....