IDENTIFYING 'MARKS' OF A SELF-REALIZED PERSON

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by ocean breeze

They usually have a tattoo that says "Self-Realized" on their shoulders.

Why not on their butt?😉

[ocean breeze]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Why not on their butt?😉

Ha, maybe they do. But of course i wouldn't know that. Aside from.....a very few.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Those who have never experienced Divine Grace wouldn't even BEGIN to understand what that is...those who haven't felt the presence of the Goddess wouldn't have a clue as to what "Goddess" means and for some, because they haven't personally experienced it, means that it isn't real/true/even there...that is okay too..well and good for THEM, just don't try and get another who has experienced it to try and believe otherwise through dogged, egotistical insistence to the point of verbal harassment...which is what a lot of people out there actually DO and then labeling it as "human nature" because they are fully entitled under free will to BE that way...the concept of "free will" is the biggest bloody excuse that humans have ever invented to justify their inhumanity.

Before September 29th I was more in Altair's camp than yours albeit not confrontational, but that all changed and so drastically that explaining it with any amount of justice is quite beyond words and in truth not possible. About all I was willing to accept about consciousness is something along the lines of Orch OR, however I always felt there was something deeper but it was a total mystery and I just didn't think it was available to people outside of extreme circumstances like NDEs or a lifetime of monastic dedication. I was skeptical of most claims and largely because of all the fraudsters and charlatans that are out there so I do understand where the skeptics are coming from.

Anyone who really knows me will be truly stunned if I ever tell them I'm finished with fishing and it will be noticed when Spring arrives. They simply won't believe me or think I banged my head way too hard and should seek medical attention and fast. LOL! . I'll be 61 in February and have been an avid angler as far back as I can remember. Aside from awareness fishing has been the one constant since three or four years old. That's how transformational it has been for me. Oh, and I sunk almost $3,000 into a new fishing kayak early in the year, including equipping and rigging it all out along with three new high-end rod & reel combos and a bunch of other new gear. The kayak, paddle and PFD account for roughly a third of the cost. I got one season's use but I can still enjoy getting out on the water with the kayak.

Honestly, I don't care what it's called, I'm just grateful beyond words for the transformation and new way of being.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Before September 29th I was more in Altair's camp than yours albeit not confrontational, but that all changed and so drastically that explaining it with any amount of justice is quite beyond words and in truth not possible.

I am not a stranger to spirituality or spiritual experiences. You don't know how that started for me and based on how people are on here I've no desire to share any details either. You are avoiding my response to you, and instead using Shivani as proxy to grind me down. Save to say, if you think I am new to spirituality and can only look at it from a skeptical and rational point of view than you are dead wrong.

I am not in any ''camp''. However, to me there are no taboos. If there are other explanations for 'spiritual' phenomena out there than I am always open to them and I've found that in many cases a simpler explanation is sufficient.

Now back to the topic. I see you haven't responded to my post [#7]. If you wish to discuss ''self-realization'' than please do so. As far as I'm aware, as it is understood in spirituality, it in a concept that originates from Indian religion and identifies people that have supposedly attained the ''end game'' of a ''cycle''. They supposedly never incarnate again and are forever in bliss and oneness, never to take any form again.

Originally Posted by Altair

I am not a stranger to spirituality or spiritual experiences. You don't know how that started for me and based on how people are on here I've no desire to share any details either. You are avoiding my response to you, and instead using Shivani as proxy to grind me down. Save to say, if you think I am new to spirituality and can only look at it from a skeptical and rational point of view than you are dead wrong.

I am not in any ''camp''. However, to me there are no taboos. If there are other explanations for 'spiritual' phenomena out there than I am always open to them and I've found that in many cases a simpler explanation is sufficient.

Now back to the topic. I see you haven't responded to my post [#7]. If you wish to discuss ''self-realization'' than please do so. As far as I'm aware, as it is understood in spirituality, it in a concept that originates from Indian religion.

I responded to you with a link that contradicts your definition of self-realization and you just parroted back your original assumption without anything to support it except for your post.

I stick to my original assertion you are either putting up a straw man to easily knock down or speaking from ignorance.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I responded to you with a link that contradicts your definition of self-realization and you just parroted back your original assumption without anything to support it except for your post.

I stick to my original assertion you are either putting up a straw man to easily knock down or speaking from ignorance.

You gave me a link of a lifestyle magazine. I view self-realization differently, because the way it is discussed in spirituality it stems from Indian religion. Some quick info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-realization. How did your link 'contradict' the definition I gave?

Calling me a straw man and ignorant is offensive, as I tried in all seriousness to address the topic at hand in my posts. If you don't like that then focus on the arguments I put forth instead of name calling me and using someone else as your proxy.

Originally Posted by Altair

You gave me a link of a lifestyle magazine. I view self-realization differently, because the way it is discussed in spirituality it stems from Indian religion. Some quick info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-realization

Calling me a straw man and ignorant is truly offensive, as I tried in all seriousness to address the topic at hand in my posts. If you don't like that then focus on the arguments I put forth instead of name calling me and using someone else as your proxy.

You should check the credentials of the author of the link I posted and the depth and detail of his article. I'll stack it up any day against Wikipedia, but since you did reference Wikipedia and from the link you posted:

"Advaita Vedanta[edit]

"Ātman is the first principle in Advaita Vedanta, along with its concept of Brahman, with Atman being the perceptible personal particular and Brahman the inferred unlimited universal, both synonymous and interchangeable. The soteriological goal, in Advaita, is to gain self-knowledge and complete understanding of the identity of Atman and Brahman. Correct knowledge of Atman and Brahman leads dissolution of all dualistic tendencies and to liberation. Moksha is attained by realizing one's true identity as Ātman, and the identity of Atman and Brahman, the complete understanding of one's real nature as Brahman in this life. This is stated by Shankara as follows:

I am other than name, form and action.
My nature is ever free!
I am Self, the supreme unconditioned Brahman.
I am pure Awareness, always non-dual."

If we substitute a table and speak in terms of science all it means is to know the true nature which, as far as we know, is defined by the Standard Model. I know a table's true nature with certainty however I do not know the intricacies of quantum mechanics or quantum field theory and all the math. To know the true nature of the table does not require infinite knowledge about every aspect of all the physics behind its structure.



Now to straw man and ignorance... I don't know what your motivations are and those are the two possibilities. In debate a straw man is simply a logical fallacy and ignorance is simply not having correct or accurate knowledge. The fact is you are ignorant on the meaning of self-realization and don't even have the humility to consider you might be in error nor did you extend me the courtesy of respecting the article I linked and putting in the effort to read it and see if it contradicted your understanding. So with all due respect if you feel offended that's something you need to address.



Concerning the author of the link I posted:

"Peter Ralston is one of the founders of the consciousness movement that began in the San Francisco Bay Area—the birthplace for much of the personal growth work generated in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Peter spent thousands of hours in Zen contemplation and has participated in dozens of intensives with Charles Berner, the founder of the Enlightenment Intensive. After powerful enlightenment experiences of his own in the early 1970s, and maturing in his work through further study with other teachers, in 1977 he opened his own teaching center in Berkeley, California. Peter works with people to authentically expand and deepen their consciousness, and to become more real, honest, and effective human beings. He facilitates people in understanding their own selves and minds, and in becoming increasingly conscious of the nature of perception, experience, and existence, as well as the nature of being. Peter is an inspired teacher, electrifying his students as he leads them to experience new insights and breakthroughs, transforming their views of themselves and their experience of life."

And his website:

https://chenghsin.com/

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Before September 29th I was more in Altair's camp than yours albeit not confrontational, but that all changed and so drastically that explaining it with any amount of justice is quite beyond words and in truth not possible. About all I was willing to accept about consciousness is something along the lines of Orch OR, however I always felt there was something deeper but it was a total mystery and I just didn't think it was available to people outside of extreme circumstances like NDEs or a lifetime of monastic dedication. I was skeptical of most claims and largely because of all the fraudsters and charlatans that are out there so I do understand where the skeptics are coming from.

Anyone who really knows me will be truly stunned if I ever tell them I'm finished with fishing and it will be noticed when Spring arrives. They simply won't believe me or think I banged my head way too hard and should seek medical attention and fast. LOL! . I'll be 61 in February and have been an avid angler as far back as I can remember. Aside from awareness fishing has been the one constant since three or four years old. That's how transformational it has been for me. Oh, and I sunk almost $3,000 into a new fishing kayak early in the year, including equipping and rigging it all out along with three new high-end rod & reel combos and a bunch of other new gear. The kayak, paddle and PFD account for roughly a third of the cost. I got one season's use but I can still enjoy getting out on the water with the kayak.

Honestly, I don't care what it's called, I'm just grateful beyond words for the transformation and new way of being.

I just need to learn how to tell skeptical people whom I do not wish to communicate with because of irreconcilable differences in experience, understanding, lifestyle, cognition etc to "sod off and go to hell" nicely, without losing my "spiritual composure".

What use is speaking with another who cannot understand a single word you say, even though you are both presumably speaking English? and further explanation or elucidation does not help matters either, if anything, it just makes the whole "communication gap" wider leading to hostile animosity?

How do I tell another that they are only wasting their breath on me because I am totally incapable of having an "emotional reaction" and so, mind games which include verbal ploys to elicit one from me (e.g "you are delusional if you believe that") or any logical fallacy...and I know them ALL because yes, I DO have an eidetic memory (I am on the Autism Spectrum), is only a waste of our mutual time?

I just wish that some people would give up trying to get me to change my mind to THEIR way of thinking if I disagree with it and I don't CARE if they call me names because I refuse to stroke their ego...because the names are all mere projections of their wounded pride anyway...I just want them to go away...like I would want a pesky fly to go away while I am busy eating my lunch.

So, for all those who would like a comprehensive list of all the argument fallacies...here they all are and I have memorised every...single...one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I see hundreds of logical fallacies in every thread I read or reply to on SF.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I just need to learn how to tell skeptical people who I don't don't wish to communicate with because of irreconcilable differences in experiences, understandings, lifestyle, cognition etc to "sod off and go to hell" nicely, without losing my "spiritual composure".

What use is speaking with another who cannot understand a single word you say, even though you are both presumably speaking English? and further explanation or elucidation does not help matters either and if anything, just makes the "communication gap" wider?

How do I tell another that they are only wasting their breath on me because I am totally incapable of having an "emotional response" and so mind games which include verbal ploy to elicit one from me (eg "you are delusional if you believe that") or any argumentative fallacy...and I know them ALL because yes, I DO have an eidetic memory because I am on the Autism Spectrum will s just a waste of our mutual time?

I just wish that some people would just give up trying to get me to change my mind to THEIR way of thinking when I disagree with it and I don't CARE if they call me names because I refuse to o stroke their ego..they are all projections only...I just want them to go away...like I would want a pesky fly to go away when I am eating my lunch..

So, for all those who would like a comprehensive list of all the argumentative fallacies...here they all are and I have memorised every...single...one.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I see hundreds of logical fallacies in every single thread I read or reply to on SF.

I don't mean to offend, though some do take offense to some things I say or post. One of the most valuable lessons I learned early on when practicing mindfulness for secular benefit was the nature of offence and taking things personally. It's not the world that upsets us, but how we interpret and react to the world. Forgetting the spiritual nature of meditation that lesson alone is worth the practice.

I learned a lot about myself and the nature of my reactions to and interpretations of life. Very, very valuable. Yeah it's difficult to confront the faults, the arrogance, the ignorance within but well worth it. I'm convinced that, along with all my digging into consciousness, set the stage for my experience and subsequent shift in consciousness.

I suppose sometimes I take it for granted and at times perhaps I'm too frank. Sometimes I just don't feel like dancing around an issue and will dish out criticism but not from a mean-spirited motivation. In the end criticism is in the eye of the beholder. It can be taken as a negative or positive, regardless of its intent. That's another valuable life lesson. Oh, and undeserved criticism can be easily defeated with countervailing evidence and I'm always willing to reconsider any criticism I dish out. I'm certainly not omniscient.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

If we substitute a table and speak in terms of science all it means is to know the true nature which, as far as we know, is defined by the Standard Model. I know a table's true nature with certainty however I do not know the intricacies of quantum mechanics or quantum field theory and all the math. To know the true nature of the table does not require infinite knowledge about every aspect of all the physics behind its structure.

Now to straw man and ignorance... I don't know what your motivations are and those are the two possibilities. In debate a straw man is simply a logical fallacy and ignorance is simply not having correct or accurate knowledge. The fact is you are ignorant on the meaning of self-realization and don't even have the humility to consider you might be in error nor did you extend me the courtesy of respecting the article I linked and putting in the effort to read it and see if it contradicted your understanding. So with all due respect if you feel offended that's something you need to address.

1. Self-realization isn’t about science. It’s a state of being that cannot be validated by itself, through any scientific experiment. What we can do is test not their “self-realization” (a religious concept) but claims made of having infinite knowledge and infinite love. These can be tested.
2. There are different definitions of self-realization. If I don’t use the one of your lifestyle magazine then this does not make me “ignorant”.

I don’t claim to know what self-realization really is, I’m going by definitions just as much as anyone else. I answered the OP and there are ways to test the claims made by those who claim to be self-realized. You disagree with the definition as it is traditionally understood and that’s fine. However, it does not give any weight to you then calling me ignorant.

You used someone else as proxy in order to put me in some camp. That’s a dishonourable act. You have issues with skepticism which is something you need to work out for yourself, apparently.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Concerning the author of the link I posted:

"Peter Ralston is one of the founders of the consciousness movement that began in the San Francisco Bay Area—the birthplace for much of the personal growth work generated in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Peter spent thousands of hours in Zen contemplation and has participated in dozens of intensives with Charles Berner, the founder of the Enlightenment Intensive. After powerful enlightenment experiences of his own in the early 1970s, and maturing in his work through further study with other teachers, in 1977 he opened his own teaching center in Berkeley, California. Peter works with people to authentically expand and deepen their consciousness, and to become more real, honest, and effective human beings. He facilitates people in understanding their own selves and minds, and in becoming increasingly conscious of the nature of perception, experience, and existence, as well as the nature of being. Peter is an inspired teacher, electrifying his students as he leads them to experience new insights and breakthroughs, transforming their views of themselves and their experience of life."
And his website:

https://chenghsin.com/

Right. I guess this is “the truth” about self-realization then.

I better agree with the above or I’ll be labelled again....