How can 'non - self' be relevant to people with no pre -existing sense of self

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Jaraja

Maybe the not self is what mystics call liberation, total absorption, the removal of the veil causing a sense of separation, being 'nothing ' as such, it is beyond description and understanding

Yep, that is it imo. the realization that there is no self.
The weirdest thing IT IS.
All the teachings being just the way to prepare you for the sheer shock of IT.

*

Originally Posted by Jaraja

Maybe the not self is what mystics call liberation, total absorption, the removal of the veil causing a sense of separation, being 'nothing ' as such, it is beyond description and understanding

And yet, I look again, and the self is there. Yes, one can say it is an illusion. All things are illusions, but that does not mean they are not real. Perhaps the self is like the moon, it is only there when we are looking. Or perhaps looking for it from the right perspective, look too closely and it dissolves away, look away from it and it ceases to exist until we look back.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by ketzer

And yet, I look again, and the self is there. Yes, one can say it is an illusion. All things are illusions, but that does not mean they are not real. Perhaps the self is like the moon, it is only there when we are looking. Or perhaps looking for it from the right perspective, look too closely and it dissolves away, look away from it and it ceases to exist until we look back.

This is good, I like what you say here Ketzer and it sounds simple but yet its very profound. I remember hearing about a Philosopher called the Bishop Berkley who said " To be is to be perceived ," in other words does the chair exist in the next room right now, the one you sat on a few minutes ago. Anyways I was blown away by the simple snippet of his philosophy that I heard and that was a good few moons ago and it still crosses my mind and I always get a 'buzz' when I think of it, like hearing an old tune I haven't heard for awhile. What your post also reminds me of is the role of perception itself ..that the watcher is somehow the watched...something like that anyway thanks for the inspiration very interesting.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Jaraja

Maybe the not self is what mystics call liberation, total absorption, the removal of the veil causing a sense of separation, being 'nothing ' as such, it is beyond description and understanding

You might enjoy this Article Jaraja


https://www.insightmeditationcenter....-noble-truths/

[sky]

Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristics.




Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Benares, in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers). There he addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five: "Bhikkhus." — "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this.

"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...

"Is perception permanent or impermanent?...

"Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...

"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

"Any kind of feeling whatever...

"Any kind of perception whatever...

"Any kind of determination whatever...

"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.

Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristics.




Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Benares, in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers). There he addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five: "Bhikkhus." — "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this.

"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...

"Is perception permanent or impermanent?...

"Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...

"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

"Any kind of feeling whatever...

"Any kind of perception whatever...

"Any kind of determination whatever...

"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.

Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.

Nice post Sky.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

This is what questions the notion that all things arise from the mind when there is no 'prior mind' to the arising of things, and leads to the core philosophy of dependent arising, which is more like a circular conception of cause than a linear one.

Chapter 19 in the Lankavatara Sutra goes over just that.

Is there a.. Universal Mind.. maybe what you call a prior mind?

The following goes over the local mind and it's relation to Universal Mind.

The mind-system, which is the source of the evil out-flowings, consists of the five sense organs and their accompanying sense-minds (Vijnanas) all of which are unified in the discriminating-mind (manovijnana). There is an unending succession of sense-concepts flowing into this discriminating or thinking-mind, which combines them and discriminates them and passes judgment upon them as to their goodness or badness. Then follows aversion to or desire for them and attachment and deed; thus the entire system moves on continuously and closely bound together. But it fails to see and understand that what it sees and discriminates and grasps is only a manifestation of its own activity and has no other basis, and so the mind goes on erroneously perceiving and discriminating differences of forms and qualities, not remaining still even for a minute.

In the mind-system there are three modes of activity distinguishable: the sense-minds functioning while remaining in their original nature, the sense-minds as producing effects, and the sense-minds as evolving. By normal functioning the sense-minds grasp appropriate elements of their external world, by which sensation and perception arise at once and by degrees in every sense-organ and every sense-mind, in the pores of the skin, and even in the atoms that make up the body, by which the whole field is apprehended like a mirror reflecting objects, and not realizing that the external world itself is only a manifestation of mind. The second mode of activity produces effects by which these sensations react on the discriminating mind to produce perceptions, attractions, aversions, grasping, deed and habit. The third mode of activity has to do with the growth, development and passing of the mind-system, that is, the mind-system is in subjection to its own habit-energy accumulated from beginning-less time, as for instance: the "eye-ness" in the eye that predisposes it to grasp and become attached to multiple forms and appearances. In this way the activities of the evolving mind-system by reason of its habit-energy stirs up waves of objectivity in the face of Universal Mind, which in turn conditions the activities and evolvement of the mind-system. Appearances, perception, attraction, grasping, deed, habit, reaction, condition one another incessantly, and the functioning sense-minds, the discriminating-mind and Universal Mind are thus bound up together. Thus, by reason of discrimination of that which by nature Maya-like and unreal false-imagination and erroneous reasoning takes place, action follows and its habit-energy accumulates thereby defiling the pure face of Universal Mind, and as a result the mind-system comes into functioning and the physical body has its genesis. But the discriminating-mind has no thought that by its discriminations and attachments it is conditioning the whole body and so the sense-minds and the discriminating-mind go on mutually related and mutually conditioned in a most intimate manner and building up a world of representations out of the activities of its own imagination. As a mirror reflects forms, the perceiving senses perceive appearances which the discriminating-mind gathers together and proceeds to discriminate, to name and become attached to. Between these two functions there is no gap, nevertheless, they are mutually conditioning. The perceiving senses grasp that for which they have an affinity, and there is a transformation takes place in their structure by reason of which the mind proceeds to combine, discriminate, apprise, and act; then follows habit-energy and the establishing of the mind and its continuance.

[jonesboy]

Now let's talk a little bit more about Universal Mind.

Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, about Universal Mind and its relation to the lower mind-system?

The Blessed One replied: The sense-minds and their centralized discriminating-mind are related to the external world, which is a manifestation of itself and is given over to perceiving, discriminating, and grasping its Maya-like appearances. Universal Mind (Alaya-Vijnana) transcends all individuation and limits. Universal Mind is thoroughly pure in its essential nature, subsisting unchanged and free from faults of impermanence, undisturbed by egoism, unruffled by distinctions, desires and aversions. Universal Mind is like a great ocean, its surface ruffled by waves and surges but its depths remaining forever unmoved. In itself it is devoid of personality and all that belongs to it, but by reason of the defilements upon its face it is like an actor and plays a variety of parts, among which a mutual functioning takes place and the mind-system arises. The principle of intellection becomes divided and mind the functions of mind, the evil out-flowings of mind, take on individuation. The sevenfold gradation of mind appears: namely, intuitive self-realization, thinking-desiring-discriminating, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, and all their interactions and reactions take their rise.

The discriminating-mind is the cause of the sense-minds and is their support and with them is kept functioning as it describes and becomes attached to a world of objects, and then, by means of its habit-energy, it defiles the face of Universal Mind. Thus Universal Mind becomes the storage and clearinghouse of all the accumulated products of mentation and action since beginning-less time.

Between Universal Mind and the individual discriminating-mind is the intuitive-mind (manas), which is dependent upon Universal Mind for its cause and support and enters into relation with both. It partakes of the universality of Universal Mind, shares its purity, and like it, is above form and momentary-ness. It is through the intuitive-mind that the good non out-flowings emerge, are manifested and are realized. Fortunate it is that intuition is not momentary for if the enlightenment, which comes by intuition, were momentary the wise would loose their "wise-ness" which they do not. But the intuitive-mind enters into relations with the lower mind-system, shares its experiences and reflects upon its activities.

Intuitive-mind is one with Universal Mind by reason of its participation in Transcendental Intelligence (Arya-jnana), and is one with the mind-system by its comprehension of differentiated knowledge (Vijnana). Intuitive-mind has no body of its own nor any marks by which it can be differentiated. Universal Mind is its cause and support but it is evolved along with the notion of an ego and what belongs to it, to which it clings and upon which it reflects. Through intuitive-mind, by the faculty of intuition, which is a mingling of both identity and perceiving, the inconceivable wisdom of Universal Mind is revealed and made realizable. Like Universal Mind it cannot be the source of error.

The discriminating mind is a dancer and a magician with the objective world as his stage. Intuitive-mind is the wise jester who travels with the magician and reflects upon his emptiness and transiency. Universal Mind keeps the record and knows what must be and what may be. It is because of the activities of the discrimination mind that error rises and an objective world evolves and the nation of an ego soul becomes established. If and when the discriminating mind can be gotten rid of, the whole mind system will cease to function and universal Mind will alone remain. Getting rid of the discriminating mind removes the cause of all error.Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, about Universal Mind and its relation to the lower mind-system?

The Blessed One replied: The sense-minds and their centralized discriminating-mind are related to the external world, which is a manifestation of itself and is given over to perceiving, discriminating, and grasping its Maya-like appearances. Universal Mind (Alaya-Vijnana) transcends all individuation and limits. Universal Mind is thoroughly pure in its essential nature, subsisting unchanged and free from faults of impermanence, undisturbed by egoism, unruffled by distinctions, desires and aversions. Universal Mind is like a great ocean, its surface ruffled by waves and surges but its depths remaining forever unmoved. In itself it is devoid of personality and all that belongs to it, but by reason of the defilements upon its face it is like an actor and plays a variety of parts, among which a mutual functioning takes place and the mind-system arises. The principle of intellection becomes divided and mind the functions of mind, the evil out-flowings of mind, take on individuation. The sevenfold gradation of mind appears: namely, intuitive self-realization, thinking-desiring-discriminating, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, and all their interactions and reactions take their rise.

The discriminating-mind is the cause of the sense-minds and is their support and with them is kept functioning as it describes and becomes attached to a world of objects, and then, by means of its habit-energy, it defiles the face of Universal Mind. Thus Universal Mind becomes the storage and clearinghouse of all the accumulated products of mentation and action since beginning-less time.

Between Universal Mind and the individual discriminating-mind is the intuitive-mind (manas), which is dependent upon Universal Mind for its cause and support and enters into relation with both. It partakes of the universality of Universal Mind, shares its purity, and like it, is above form and momentary-ness. It is through the intuitive-mind that the good non out-flowings emerge, are manifested and are realized. Fortunate it is that intuition is not momentary for if the enlightenment, which comes by intuition, were momentary the wise would loose their "wise-ness" which they do not. But the intuitive-mind enters into relations with the lower mind-system, shares its experiences and reflects upon its activities.

Intuitive-mind is one with Universal Mind by reason of its participation in Transcendental Intelligence (Arya-jnana), and is one with the mind-system by its comprehension of differentiated knowledge (Vijnana). Intuitive-mind has no body of its own nor any marks by which it can be differentiated. Universal Mind is its cause and support but it is evolved along with the notion of an ego and what belongs to it, to which it clings and upon which it reflects. Through intuitive-mind, by the faculty of intuition, which is a mingling of both identity and perceiving, the inconceivable wisdom of Universal Mind is revealed and made realizable. Like Universal Mind it cannot be the source of error.

The discriminating mind is a dancer and a magician with the objective world as his stage. Intuitive-mind is the wise jester who travels with the magician and reflects upon his emptiness and transiency. Universal Mind keeps the record and knows what must be and what may be. It is because of the activities of the discrimination mind that error rises and an objective world evolves and the nation of an ego soul becomes established. If and when the discriminating mind can be gotten rid of, the whole mind system will cease to function and universal Mind will alone remain. Getting rid of the discriminating mind removes the cause of all error.

[Ariaecheflame]

Originally Posted by janielee

Hi there Ariaecheflame

I will answer in two ways:

1. Put aside "anatta" - anatta is not a theory, it's not a philosophy and most of all, in my opinion - it's not a belief system.

Some people pick it up and draw elaborate theories about it, they miss the point - big time.

You ask - how does someone with a sense of no strong identity relate? Well I would say use what is useful to you - put aside (this does not mean dispel or disbelieve, it simply means put aside) that which is not yet.

The path changes and you would know that more than anyone, what is opaque now may be clearer in future - or not. It doesn't matter. It's your life so what matters is your happiness and peace of mind. Really, Buddhism is just about that - a peace of mind that hopefully stands you in stead through all your life.

If you are interested in Buddhism, a good book is "What the Buddha taught" by Rev Walpola Rahula. If you're not, it doesn't really matter, what matters is your happiness.

Just my 2c.

2. how can this concept be relevant to someone like me who has actively had to develop a path towards knowing, cultivating and embodying a sense of self

For a practicing Buddhist (of which no-one needs to be one btw) everything becomes groundwork for the patch. So even a shy self, an insecure self, an unsure self, a weaker self - is merely observed, watched, known for what s/he is.

A friend once said to me that base psychological health is important so - there is also that. In Buddhism there is no-one that will tell you you have to do x or you have to do y. Sure there are encouragements and directions, and each follows what they will. But under that child, there is possibly the hurt, the shame, the history - all of this will eventually be cared for, and tended to, within a practice.

There is no need for talk or thought about anatta per se, all you need to do is start meditating. Buddhist meditation is not like others on this forum - it's a meditation with no bells and whistles and in its simplicity, it offers much in return.

Namaste,

JL

Thank you JL.

I got a sense of peace from your reply.

I really appreciate the simple acceptance in what you say.

My meditation practice has recently been taking a much quieter tone to it - similar to how you describe. For many years it focused on visionary journey's as I cleared up many layers of past patterns and trauma.

Lately though I (even these last few days) I have started to experience deeper levels of 'quiet, feeling my pressence.

It reminds me of when I was younger trying out different youth churches when ministers would say things like "you can't intellectualise the spirit of God/Jesue/holy spirit, you have to experience it.

I have been arriving more into this awareness I feel in regards to this sense of what I can only describe as 'the self beyond self'
So thank you for the reminder.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Now let's talk a little bit more about Universal Mind.

' The discriminating mind is a dancer and a magician with the objective world as his stage. Intuitive-mind is the wise jester who travels with the magician and reflects upon his emptiness and transiency.'


Love this