The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

7L

You are much loved, but I do agree now that spiritual conversations are difficult mainly because some people have different ideas and ideals about it all.

Please, continue in the vein that you wish and I feel you have belabored your points enough [to me].

As to certainties, lol, yes you are certain. As is your right. Please go ahead and do not convince me anymore. I am content. You go ahead, but I'm afraid I cannot keep up anymore.

Peace and blessings.

BT

Blossom, you too are much loved
I agree that we all have different ideas etc.
I am not trying to convince you of anything and that has never been my intention -- you are and we all are entitled to our own perspective.
I have only intended to set out how I see things, no more or less.

I hope that we can allow everyone their perspectives without having to say anyone is belabouring anything (instead of just having a discussion).

Or that anyone is trying to convince the other. I think it's a natural reaction but if we push past it, we can agree to disagree whilst hopefully hearing more about the other perspective. For example, I believe that where you are is where you feel you need to be, and I respect your journey and likewise I respect that it's not exactly the same as or exactly equivalent to mine. That I prefer to be elsewhere whilst still consciously and conscientiously walking my path.

In our history to date (humanity), we have not at all done a good job of respecting the paths of the disadvantaged, nor of the non-mainstream or the "unchurched" or non-affiliated logistically (or ideologically). That is why I in particular see this discussion as so open-ended and liberating...the possibilities before us are many and we (humanity) finally have the space and the voice to explore them in ways and in areas traditionally neglected or minimized, whilst consciously walking our paths.

I have valued our exchange and I hope you continue to speak on this thread and others exactly as you wish -- and only as you wish, of course.

Peace & blessing
7L

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Time for some Rumi methinks

Soul receives from soul that knowledge, therefore not by book

nor from tongue.

If knowledge of mysteries come after emptiness of mind, that is

illumination of heart.

Rumi

Inspiring words.

Words.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Inspiring words.

Words.

Do you have anything else for me, dear one?

BT

PS Illumination is wordless, but hey a forum and all. Rumi was just being kind to talk, don't you think? Think?

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Do you have anything else for me, dear one?

BT

PS Illumination is wordless, but hey a forum and all. Rumi was just being kind to talk, don't you think? Think?

My apologies BT. I have spoken in error.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Kioma

My apologies BT. I have spoken in error.

You owe me nothing, K, let alone an apology! I was speaking in jest only, light heartedly, was trying to have some fun in this otherwise solemn thread.

Be well, dear one.

BT

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

You owe me nothing, K, let alone an apology! I was speaking in jest only, light heartedly, was trying to have some fun in this otherwise solemn thread.

Be well, dear one.

BT

No worries BT. Take good care.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

. Rumi was just being kind to talk, don't you think? Think?

Good afternoon blossomingtree

Giving it a setting, to work in it's own accord

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Here is a spiritual conversation I found in the stories forum:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=24049

Where is the difficulty? The skill? The contention?

Such complicated stories we weave.

That's a story (fictional sages we imagine in our minds again), and there was no conversation after it.

Originally Posted by Gem

That's a story (fictional sages we imagine in our minds again), and there was no conversation after it.

Point. But our conversation is not fictional.

Do you dismiss it as easily?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I see your point...there is something there as well, in that regardless of how well we integrate teachings as we walk our path, until we have apprehended and integrated the universal truths to which the teachings point, there is some disparity in integrity.

I don't even assume the teachings point to anything. To me, some of it seems true to life, but then again, I can only assign meaning according to any insight I may have.

Moreover, even when apprehended and integrated, there is likely to be some disparity in outcome and that is not a bad thing necessarily, IMO.

Well that's assuming the teaching is true...

In some cases, I think this may (may) also be an opportunity to transform oneself and also to contribute meaningfully to humanity's collective spiritual project. At least in part, this gets to addressing the manifest outcomes of our journey in these three broad areas I mentioned and no doubt there is much more.

That's the reason I bang on about self awareness, and if the idea occurs that I am on a special spiritual mission of some kind... then I can entertained by it as fiction... but I couldn't take it seriously.

I think the value (IMO...others such as BlossomingTree etc may or may not disagree) of the masters is to present an integral, manifest, lived example for reference, within which key foundational themes can be discerned. E.g., manifest lovingkindness and manifest equanimity in their lived word and deed underscore the centrality of lovingkindness and equanimity in their being and doing and we may assume in their beliefs and perspectives.

These folks may (may) serve as meaningful references for "what does integrity look like regarding manifest lovingkindness and manifest equanimity?" and similar internal and collective reflections and assessments. As far as living from our centre individually, societally, and as a human collective on earth, etc.

Yes, but only as imagined figures in our heads, and when such imagined figures are copied, emulated, imitated, then there is question of integrity.

I mean no disrespect to anyone's belief system, but I personally find nearly all of our spiritual teachings to be not devoid of any truth, but rather simply critically lacking or partial in truth, and I think this points to what we ourselves need to bring to our own and our mutual collective journey(s).

Yes, it's not worthless as such - but it is when when taken as knowledge, for that only means we are convinced just as I was in my Christian youth.

This to me is liberating because it speaks to ownership, engagement, co-creation, and both shaping and choosing from the possibilities.

Great, I'm a big advocate for broadening the range of possibility.

I don't have beliefs in dogma or human designations of rank, like "lord". But I do apprehend that some aspects of consciousness are more advanced than my own in various ways (particularly higher non-human consciousness whom I also refer to as guides). Though this doesn't make them better, holier, or more worthy...even if they have great "superpowers" by our assessment.

Personally I find the comparison is fundamentally flawed, and it's only used to orient 'myself'. I was brainwashed by the spiritual paradigm myself so I find myself thinking about where I am, the level I am at, but I recognise it as the conditioning of what I have been convinced of, so I believe it in a sense, but I also know it's all a fiction I concocted because it's clear to me I'm just thinking it up. It becomes completely unimportant because I know it isn't 'real'. I took it to be true, then I become the diminished persona in the imagined comparison and start to imitate the 'comparative other'.

And they would and do concur with that assessment, in my apprehension. Nor are titles required. Nor are they omniscient and thus the final experts in dealing with the specifics of human iniquity and our three areas of lack...though they are pretty damn good nonetheless. But it is their integrity and general lack of obstructions that I look to, like 'elder brother' fellow travellers.

Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. It's just not my thing to give a higher regard any person over any other, particularly icons I have only imagined out of stories I was told.

This gets back to my earlier point again. We are all responsible for who and where we are, and we all have meaningful knowledge to share. I personally think we may be better served by a more fluid construct of gathering and sharing spiritual wisdom as we evolve in consciousness, but that will go hand in hand with acknowledging the relevance of voices and contributions previously not generally recognised. For example, a lowly woman like me, a single working mum, sole support, LOL...though with my own thoughts and journey to date. What about those far worse off and far more thoroughly ignored, judged and/or denigrated for their humble plight or their sufferings? Who has historically ever listened to them? Who listens now, in any fashion? Not so many. Perhaps they will be our among greatest teachers yet (and fellow travellers).

Indeed, people generally aren't particularly good listeners, and in my own mind, your voice is equally relevant to any so-called enlightened one. It's all the same, you see, for if I imagine you in contrast to an enlightened one, you appear lesser worth hearing in that fallacious paradigm. I already know that the way I imagine you is not you, so there is no way for me to assign value. If I believed the imaginary you actually represented you then I'd be compelled to manipulate you into affirming my delusion, which again reflects on integrity.

Last go-round I hardly spoke and lived on sufferance at the margins of the community...with 1 or 2 exceptions, barely a soul noticed if I lived or died, save if they thought they could exploit or use me in some way. And yet, I feel I possessed a great deal of wisdom about life and consciousness in that lifetime. Likewise, if I had spoken of my physical suffering (starving to feed my child) and isolation, and of all those in great suffering or in particularly vulnerable and marginalised physical situations, who would have listened? Prior to that, as both men and women, I was murdered in all other lifetimes which I can recall...what would many of the masters make of that, LOL? But TBH I feel I have learnt a great deal of subtle wisdom on the core nature of our being (love) and of our natural inclination to these things -- authentic love, forgiveness, repentance, and reconciliation -- from these experiences. We don't have to strive to be these things. We are these things; only obstructions may hide this fact.

Well said. I was saying earlier that the spiritual conversation will necessarily touch upon obstructions we may have, which I know can be difficult.

This story could be anyone's. And it's everyone's own story which contributes to the seamless tapestry. It doesn't mean we lack wisdom or the ability to share...it typically just means we weren't sufficiently powerful, strategically placed and also powerful enough to challenge the injustices OR to get our core message out in any wider sense.

Good point.

But we have manifest knowledge to add to our shared spiritual soup pot which has not yet been added by the designated teachers who came before. And that knowledge sharing is key, IMO.

Peace & blessings
7L

To me, there is a great structure we call 'knowledge', and to a degree it has purpose, so I can remember how to change a tyre, count change and so on, but it goes deeper than that into a general structure called 'the known', and it seems to me, if we collate all the things people cling to and look at the whole structure of it, it is really just clinging to the known. I remember J krishnamurti once saying that we don;t actually fear the unknown at all, we only fear losing the known. That to me sums up 'clinging' most succinctly.