There are no accidents........

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I rest my case, Mac. It's about looking behind the mask.

So, now we can also get into contradictions. If everything is pre-planned before you become incarnate, then being in that plane crash is part of your karma, it was meant to happen. If you believe everything happens because it was meant to, there are no accidents.

But If you look hard enough, there's much more to it than cause and effect - unless you want to argue semantics of course. No doubt being in that plane crash changes your Life in some way - it has to because every experience does. How it does, that has to depend on the individual. How would you be after a plane crash? Would it affect your thinking in some way? Would the atheist sitting in the seat next to you suddenly believe there was a God after all because their Life had been spared?

To give you one example. Carole Chapman 'found' the Golden Ones after having an almost fatal car crash and a near death experience. The book she wrote afterwards made a big difference to my Life because there was a huge synchronicity there - and the same with a few other people who recommended the book. Probably to many others as well. To my beliefs, things happen in your Life to make you the person you are today - and to me they're not just coincidences because I don't believe in them. Call it cause and effect - the cause was reading the book, the effect was a shift in my beliefs. In which case we're discussing the same thing. For me, the reason (one of them anyway) behind the mask of her having the accident was to give her what she needed to write the book, then for others to read it, and on......

Things happen for a reason - if you care to look for one.

Hallelujah. Well said Greenslade. I wouldn't be who I am today had it not been for the experiences I've had throughout my life. I wouldn't be who I am had I not had the accident that 'awakened' me, or my ex hubby leaving, all the health problems I have, all the trauma .. but you know what? I don't regret one thing .. they are all apart of who I am.
Every decision we make is perfect in that moment, so there are no bad choices, yes the outcome may seem negative, but you can guarantee that at some point the positives will appear.
It's the same with luck, if everything happens for a reason (which I've already stated I'm a firm believer in) then there is no luck, and as for coincidence, nope it doesn't belong in my dictionary either.

Originally Posted by mac

It's down to the same issue - feelings - beliefs....no evidence - guess it's easier to think that way than to look deeper? That's not my way...

That may not be your way mac, but not everybody thinks the same way you do.

Originally Posted by Jules

Hallelujah. Well said Greenslade. I wouldn't be who I am today had it not been for the experiences I've had throughout my life. I wouldn't be who I am had I not had the accident that 'awakened' me, or my ex hubby leaving, all the health problems I have, all the trauma .. but you know what? I don't regret one thing .. they are all apart of who I am.
Every decision we make is perfect in that moment, so there are no bad choices, yes the outcome may seem negative, but you can guarantee that at some point the positives will appear.
It's the same with luck, if everything happens for a reason (which I've already stated I'm a firm believer in) then there is no luck, and as for coincidence, nope it doesn't belong in my dictionary either.

That may not be your way mac, but not everybody thinks the same way you do.

"That may not be your way mac, but not everybody thinks the same way you do." ditto for your own approach....

The problem I find is that because individuals decide that something has been that way in their own lives, it's then a universal situation, the same for everyone, for all their lives too....

I accept that you can't accept my alternative but mine's an enabling rather than a prescriptive approach. My way - as you put it - is to allow that situations can be different for others elsewhere and not that one person's beliefs fit all others' situations.

And to repeat myself, I don't do belief. You won't read "I believe....." in my postings. While that's in others' postings, I will stand firm in my resolve that evidence and guidance are far better alternatives....

Forgive my self-indulgence in giving this account. Identities and locations avoided for confidentiality.

A certain couple lost their baby. Another couple did too, at a slightly different time to the first couple. They lived close to one another but neither knew the other.

For one parent of the first couple, the loss led to a lifetime of spiritual investigation and learning, a path which sometimes helped others in unexpected ways. For the second couple was there no such experience for either parent. One was devastated at the loss, the other little concerned. Life went on for both couples but in very different ways.

Later the lives of these couples intersected. Definitely not coincidence because one approached the other. Help over the bereavement was offered and accepted by one parent from each couple. Things appeared to be looking up but there was no wonderful transformation of the second couple's life, despite each couple having comparable, similar lives.

More children entered into the lives of each pair. Things appeared to be improving for both new families, both having survived the trauma of very similar bereavements and both having been able to carry on with life.

If coincidences never occur it might be expected that all would move forward together. But that wasn't the case. For one couple life moved happily forward...

For the other came separation, later divorce, two tiny children the desperately sad victims. Family life entered the realms of weekly upset as the kids oscillated between parents, their extended families suffering too. The kids lived mostly with their weekday parent, weekend visits to the other becoming an upsetting and disruptive event.

Stress led on to illness, illness and stress led on to the weekday parent taking their own life.... The children were quickly abandoned by the weekend parent and brought up by other family members.

This is years ago but the hurt for everyone goes on little changed - including the parent now in spirit. Not for the weekend parent, though, who now has not seen their children for several years, despite living only minutes away.

This is not a made-up story. I wish it were....

Now I could be wrong but my belief is there are no accidents, when it is our time to pass to the other side it will happen, no matter what our age.
I would be interested in reading your views on this.

I used to believe that we had a certain time and date when we were due to pass over but now I realise that the belief just makes us feel better and gives us a reason as to why people die when they do. If this belief was true then people who die of cancer from smoking for example were fated then to die that way and therefore fated to smoke. It doesnt ring true really.

Whilst we wonder how, when or why we will die, would could live life the best way we know how until that moment when it happensas it really could be at any time.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by SarahFair

I like to believe we have several "exits" in this life. Depending apon whether or not you have completed what you are suppose to in this life depends on when you are suppose to leave.

I also believe that some lives that result in early deaths are ment to be lessons for others.

I agree. I also think that the connections that occur along the way can change the exit(s) you had previously "planned" to take...perhaphs repeatedly...and this is the importance of love and connection in our lives.

I also realise that...(as illustrated so movingly in Groundhog Day)...when it is time, then it's time...and at some point, of course death is unavoidable in the physical sense.

What I take from this into my daily life is to treasure everyone close to you, because you never know how long you or they will have w/one another...and also, I think it's more than ok to love and heal and try to postpone the exit (so to speak) for those you love, as long as you understand that it's the love that matters...as long as you accept the outcome regardless, in that it's not really about you or what you were able to do...it's just about sharing the love. This is a lesson I've had to learn...and it's been very difficult (as a person & to some degree also as a healer)...but as long as we just focus on the love, we can always find our way back.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Originally Posted by shepherd

I used to believe that we had a certain time and date when we were due to pass over but now I realise that the belief just makes us feel better and gives us a reason as to why people die when they do. If this belief was true then people who die of cancer from smoking for example were fated then to die that way and therefore fated to smoke. It doesnt ring true really.

Whilst we wonder how, when or why we will die, would could live life the best way we know how until that moment when it happensas it really could be at any time.

Thanks, shepherd. I often feel I'm labouring by myself when all I make the point that so many postings are based only on personal beliefs.

How folks feel that they understand 'stuff', their 'personal truths' (as so many would have it) is beyond me but I realise I'm in a small minority when I express such feelings

[7luminaries]

I'm an analyst and work with numbers. Precise numbers...lol. I use my rational linear brain on a regular basis. However I think for many of us, it is very limited in its insights when it comes to understanding the big questions. Socioeconomic factors come into play with smoking...so do genetic factors and susceptibility to cancer...as do geographic and sometimes occupational factors.

But how does this help us understand the big picture? Something such as death...especially death at the individual level, for which broad strokes shed little real insight. There are things we can change, whether on a micro & a macro level, particularly collectively and with the application of intent, political will or what have you. But there are also many things we can't change or don't fully understand (presumably necessary or preferred in order to direct intent & action for change).

Put another way, it's the allegory of the tapestry that applies here, even beyond the allegory of the cave...

Peace,
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I'm an analyst and work with numbers. Precise numbers...lol. I use my rational linear brain on a regular basis. However I think for many of us, it is very limited in its insights when it comes to understanding the big questions. Socioeconomic factors come into play with smoking...so do genetic factors and susceptibility to cancer...as do geographic and sometimes occupational factors.

But how does this help us understand the big picture? Something such as death...especially death at the individual level, for which broad strokes shed little real insight. There are things we can change, whether on a micro & a macro level, particularly collectively and with the application of intent, political will or what have you. But there are also many things we can't change or don't fully understand (presumably necessary or preferred in order to direct intent & action for change).

Put another way, it's the allegory of the tapestry that applies here, even beyond the allegory of the cave...

Peace,
7L

It would have been helpful if you'd've avoided jargon and spoke in simple English for dumbos like myself....

[7luminaries]

LOL...fair enough...

So anyhoo logic only takes you so far...we can analyse trends and such, and they point to things we can work to change...either as individuals or as a collective...we can change our diets or w/e...and we can vote, volunteer, donate (,lobby...LOL) or otherwise collectively support certain policies to make things more equitable & reduce suffering.

But trends & facts don't tell us much about an individual's story, or why or how they died, etc. And even at a national or global level...they are very broad and often inaccurate indicators of places and times.

The facts...the logic approach...seems they can only take you so far toward the truth...at a certain point on the path, you realise you are blind...and you have to swap out your sensory eyes for your "real" eye...the one that swaps out logic for intuition and (we hope) insight.

That's my experience anyway...and I am but a lowly footsoldier on the path of truth, LOL...many others wiser than me have said the same...that's why I put it out there for your consideration...otherwise, who am I? Just one person w/her individual truth, LOL...


Cheers,
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

LOL...fair enough...

So anyhoo logic only takes you so far...we can analyse trends and such, and they point to things we can work to change...either as individuals or as a collective...we can change our diets or w/e...and we can vote, volunteer, donate (,lobby...LOL) or otherwise collectively support certain policies to make things more equitable & reduce suffering.

But trends & facts don't tell us much about an individual's story, or why or how they died, etc. And even at a national or global level...they are very broad and often inaccurate indicators of places and times.

The facts...the logic approach...seems they can only take you so far toward the truth...at a certain point on the path, you realise you are blind...and you have to swap out your sensory eyes for your "real" eye...the one that swaps out logic for intuition and (we hope) insight.

That's my experience anyway...and I am but a lowly footsoldier on the path of truth, LOL...many others wiser than me have said the same...that's why I put it out there for your consideration...otherwise, who am I? Just one person w/her individual truth, LOL...


Cheers,
7L

I won't go down the 'individual truth', 'personal truth' path again - I've trodden it flat of late....

Others who are wiser? Is it wisdom when you see things in a different light - or is wisdom when you do something different from the herd when you do see things differently?