Fundamentals of mindful practice

[Gem]

What we now call 'mindfulness' in modern meditation and psychotherapy are variations on the Buddhist meditation called 'insight' or 'vipassana'. The basic outline of this modality can be found in the satipatthana sutta.

However, one can't simply leap forth into the practice without establishing some foundations, so I want to talk about the foundations first, before discussing the underlying aspects of the meditation itself.

There is a primary fundamental and a secondary fundamental, and these are morality and organisation. Morality (sila) is crudely outlined in the 'precepts' which are simplistic rules concerning lying, stealing, killing and so forth, but of course, apart from simple abeyance, there are deeper aspects of nature from which these rules transpire. The second foundation, organisation, pertains to simple organisation of life, because if a person is scatty and erratic, living without any structure, so run off their feet they are beside themselves, or intoxicated/hungover, or otherwise disheveled, they are very likely to be highly distracted and won't be able to 'chillax'. One of the moral precepts actually regards intoxication directly, so in this we see an example of how morality interrelates with organisation.

In short, one needs to 'clean up their act' and 'get their house in order' to prepare the foundation of practice.

That will do for an OP, and perhaps we might talk about these points generally and lead into a more in depth discussion on mindfulness from there.

P.S. In view of frequent and recent moderator intervention in this forum section, I suggest that a disposition of kindness would best reflect discourses we regard as 'Buddhist'.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

What we now call 'mindfulness' in modern meditation and psychotherapy are variations on the Buddhist meditation called 'insight' or 'vipassana'. The basic outline of this modality can be found in the satipatthana sutta.

However, one can't simply leap forth into the practice without establishing some foundations, so I want to talk about the foundations first, before discussing the underlying aspects of the meditation itself.

There is a primary fundamental and a secondary fundamental, and these are morality and organisation. Morality (sila) is crudely outlined in the 'precepts' which are simplistic rules concerning lying, stealing, killing and so forth, but of course, apart from simple abeyance, there are deeper aspects of nature from which these rules transpire. The second foundation, organisation, pertains to simple organisation of life, because if a person is scatty and erratic, living without any structure, so run off their feet they are beside themselves, or intoxicated/hungover, or otherwise disheveled, they are very likely to be highly distracted and won't be able to 'chillax'. One of the moral precepts actually regards intoxication directly, so in this we see an example of how morality interrelates with organisation.

In short, one needs to 'clean up their act' and 'get their house in order' to prepare the foundation of practice.

That will do for an OP, and perhaps we might talk about these points generally and lead into a more in depth discussion on mindfulness from there.

P.S. In view of frequent and recent moderator intervention in this forum section, I suggest that a disposition of kindness would best reflect discourses we regard as 'Buddhist'.

Its good sound advice and starting points gem. I know early in my own early development times, when foundations were scattered and unfocused, I was being constantly reminded to bring that back into focus. I also see how fear through my conditioned religious upbringing played a role in keeping me from all those other things you mentioned, such as lying, stealing, killing etc. So even as I had friends growing up stealing and lying, some where within me fear always kept me from going off the rails in this way, which was a probably a good protective mechanism until I could delve into truth deeper myself and let fear go.

Focus was my biggest and most difficult foundation to build. I was all over the shop with skewed views and so many realities in me forming ten thousand strains and lines pulling me in all directions, crazy as it was, being so deeply entrenched, meant deeper weeding out and more solid foundation built. I guess that comes back to understanding all sides in self, to build that strong foundation of self, that then moves you more mindfully aware of yourself and all life.

I think back to how removed I am from my old foundations, that it is hard to even imagine how I was. But in hindsight, I see that for some reason, the deeper we are unstable in foundations, the more opportunity we have to go that deep to build them anew.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Its good sound advice and starting points gem. I know early in my own early development times, when foundations were scattered and unfocused, I was being constantly reminded to bring that back into focus. I also see how fear through my conditioned religious upbringing played a role in keeping me from all those other things you mentioned, such as lying, stealing, killing etc. So even as I had friends growing up stealing and lying, some where within me fear always kept me from going off the rails in this way, which was a probably a good protective mechanism until I could delve into truth deeper myself and let fear go.

I was raised Christian, too, which instilled basic moral behaviour, but under the fear of God's wrath as well, and my religious upbringing did more harm than good, wot with all the guilt trips etc, but all my beliefs collapsed very suddenly one night when I was 19 during a weird NDE spiced with a lot of alcohol and drugs, and from then on there's no way I can believe in religion at all. It doesn't matter much in terms of mindfulness, though, people can believe what they want, but we tend to find that our beliefs become exposed for the nonsense that they are once we become sincere about the truth - and in terms of morality, that means being so honest inside that our 'stories' tend to be a lot less convincing.

Focus was my biggest and most difficult foundation to build. I was all over the shop with skewed views and so many realities in me forming ten thousand strains and lines pulling me in all directions, crazy as it was, being so deeply entrenched, meant deeper weeding out and more solid foundation built. I guess that comes back to understanding all sides in self, to build that strong foundation of self, that then moves you more mindfully aware of yourself and all life.

Well, yes - what we call focus is actually already there - for example, if you are in a quite room and close your eyes and listen, any slight sound is immediately heard clear as a bell, so if we can take that same principle of noticing and apply it to whatever thoughts arise, then thoughts will arise in a clear space just like sounds do in a quiet room. The thing is, if you are in a quiet room like that, you don't try to make any sound because if you do you won't hear the sounds that arise, and it's quite easy to just quiet down and listen for whatever sound might happen in a quiet room.

It's a good metaphor for the practice because although many meditation techniques are trying to produce experiences, when we listen in a quiet room we simply become alert to the sounds that are there, and we automatically become quiet ourselves so that we can notice them. That is to say, if a person genuinely wants to know what is there, they will quiet down and 'listen' - and they won't try to quiet down - they only try to hear.

I think back to how removed I am from my old foundations, that it is hard to even imagine how I was. But in hindsight, I see that for some reason, the deeper we are unstable in foundations, the more opportunity we have to go that deep to build them anew.

In this sense, morality can already open up life issues, because you have to live in the truth, no matter how uncomfortable that might be, and the truth doesn't deal in what anyone wants. The truth is a word for 'as it is'; not a word for 'the way you want it to be'. If the foundations are not stable, then the truth will be obscured by justifications and stories of blame, but as I said, one has to quiet down to hear sounds in a quiet room, so it's ok for stories to come up, as one realises, 'oh, so this what I have been doing, justifying and blaming and making excuses,' and that means you don't care about those stories anymore, you recognise the fallacy and they become meaningless. You lose interest in them and stop making that sort of noise. If they pop up, you recognise them like, that's the stuff I used to think, knowing well you no longer believe it.

There we go, that's one problem solved, so one continues in a similar vein, being truthful, believing nothing the mind has to say, as thoughts are like sounds in a quiet room - they come into the mind and then they go away.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

I was raised Christian, too, which instilled basic moral behaviour, but under the fear of God's wrath as well, and my religious upbringing did more harm than good, wot with all the guilt trips etc, but all my beliefs collapsed very suddenly one night when I was 19 during a weird NDE spiced with a lot of alcohol and drugs, and from then on there's no way I can believe in religion at all. It doesn't matter much in terms of mindfulness, though, people can believe what they want, but we tend to find that our beliefs become exposed for the nonsense that they are once we become sincere about the truth - and in terms of morality, that means being so honest inside that our 'stories' tend to be a lot less convincing.

Yes I know the harm aspect can be confining to one's true self wanting to embrace life beyond that guilt trips etc. So that harm aspect I know all too well created a real disjointed connection to life in me and around me. Unlike yourself, my shift from conditioned religious core stuff didn't really kick in till much later when I hit the dark night of the soul time, where I had to go deep to pull out all those roots still lingering and affecting my openness and truth of the bigger picture and expand my reality as one monumental shift. Its like sometimes you need to see the whole bang lot together to kind of get it to hit home in everyway and see a way out. I guess your moment gave you what you needed back when you were "only nineteen" .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

My dark night of the soul and expanded view of reality as one, was really where the deeper truth's were housed so once I landed in those roots, there was no where to go by that stage. Into the messy land and see the greater land awaiting, let go and found my way through the maze of craziness.

Well, yes - what we call focus is actually already there - for example, if you are in a quite room and close your eyes and listen, any slight sound is immediately heard clear as a bell, so if we can take that same principle of noticing and apply it to whatever thoughts arise, then thoughts will arise in a clear space just like sounds do in a quiet room. The thing is, if you are in a quiet room like that, you don't try to make any sound because if you do you won't hear the sounds that arise, and it's quite easy to just quiet down and listen for whatever sound might happen in a quiet room.

That makes sense. Listening is probably my strongest tool. Being hearing impaired has forced me in so many ways of its deterioration, to focus and listen deeper. So it comes more natural to me now to bring a deeper awareness beyond my 'normal ears' down into my 'being' and listen from there. So I suppose the loss was a gain in this way of viewing this issue I have.

It's a good metaphor for the practice because although many meditation techniques are trying to produce experiences, when we listen in a quiet room we simply become alert to the sounds that are there, and we automatically become quiet ourselves so that we can notice them. That is to say, if a person genuinely wants to know what is there, they will quiet down and 'listen' - and they won't try to quiet down - they only try to hear.

I did a workshop today about once again reminding me about dropping down into my being to move beyond the mind's eye and experiencing from that point alone (meaning not staying stuck in those views) shifting down into the belly to open up a deeper experience where all of me showed up, I entered the feeling, let go, opened the space of confinement, let go, climbed back up to my "birds eye view" where I saw the higher truth or wisdom of myself in all that. Where as the "minds eye" saw only myself as the vision alone, which was ok, because ultimately I was doing a test on myself as to why it is so easy to tell yourself the story of your visions rather than going down into your belly and allowing the whole self to show you more and gain more self awareness in that process.

In this sense, morality can already open up life issues, because you have to live in the truth, no matter how uncomfortable that might be, and the truth doesn't deal in what anyone wants. The truth is a word for 'as it is'; not a word for 'the way you want it to be'. If the foundations are not stable, then the truth will be obscured by justifications and stories of blame, but as I said, one has to quiet down to hear sounds in a quiet room, so it's ok for stories to come up, as one realises, 'oh, so this what I have been doing, justifying and blaming and making excuses,' and that means you don't care about those stories anymore, you recognise the fallacy and they become meaningless. You lose interest in them and stop making that sort of noise. If they pop up, you recognise them like, that's the stuff I used to think, knowing well you no longer believe it.

Makes much sense.

There we go, that's one problem solved, so one continues in a similar vein, being truthful, believing nothing the mind has to say, as thoughts are like sounds in a quiet room - they come into the mind and then they go away.

Yep.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes I know the harm aspect can be confining to one's true self wanting to embrace life beyond that guilt trips etc. So that harm aspect I know all too well created a real disjointed connection to life in me and around me. Unlike yourself, my shift from conditioned religious core stuff didn't really kick in till much later when I hit the dark night of the soul time, where I had to go deep to pull out all those roots still lingering and affecting my openness and truth of the bigger picture and expand my reality as one monumental shift. Its like sometimes you need to see the whole bang lot together to kind of get it to hit home in everyway and see a way out. I guess your moment gave you what you needed back when you were "only nineteen" .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

Well, if you lose your religion suddenly like I did, it leaves a big hole and is very disorienting, so there is still a slow process of coming to terms with having nothing to 'turn to'.

My dark night of the soul and expanded view of reality as one, was really where the deeper truth's were housed so once I landed in those roots, there was no where to go by that stage. Into the messy land and see the greater land awaiting, let go and found my way through the maze of craziness.

Yes it's a dark night when you have to come to terms with all your own delusions, and that's likely to go on for a good while, but the meditation can give us some skills of keeping an even keel as we go through it. Almost everyone I've meditated with has a pretty rough trot, so I'm not one to sell spiritual hope. I just advocate facing the truth of oneself, and where people have answers for others, I don't.

That makes sense. Listening is probably my strongest tool. Being hearing impaired has forced me in so many ways of its deterioration, to focus and listen deeper. So it comes more natural to me now to bring a deeper awareness beyond my 'normal ears' down into my 'being' and listen from there. So I suppose the loss was a gain in this way of viewing this issue I have.

I learned listening skills from being a musician, same deal, have to listen harder to learn all the notes of a song, and then play them so they sound just right - and we know music has a feel below the sound itself...

I did a workshop today about once again reminding me about dropping down into my being to move beyond the mind's eye and experiencing from that point alone (meaning not staying stuck in those views) shifting down into the belly to open up a deeper experience where all of me showed up, I entered the feeling, let go, opened the space of confinement, let go, climbed back up to my "birds eye view" where I saw the higher truth or wisdom of myself in all that. Where as the "minds eye" saw only myself as the vision alone, which was ok, because ultimately I was doing a test on myself as to why it is so easy to tell yourself the story of your visions rather than going down into your belly and allowing the whole self to show you more and gain more self awareness in that process.

Sounds good. I don;t have anything like that. At the mo I'm training to be a personal trainer, and I have discovered that the industry is generally a big distraction from that mind/body connection, and based on people who are 'busy' having a short time to get their exercise done - and it all become quite noisy and rushed with a lot of sales and marketing pushing it all along... my own training is hard, but it is also serene and based on the practice of mind body connection and perfection of ranges of motion.



Makes much sense.




Yep.[/quote]

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, if you lose your religion suddenly like I did, it leaves a big hole and is very disorienting, so there is still a slow process of coming to terms with having nothing to 'turn to'.

Yes I get it, I guess my own crisis of faith when everything turned upside down and didn't fit anymore, left me sitting in an empty hole, so even as religion fuelled many of my core fears, there is comfort in holding both fears and god in your core even if held in fear. Letting them all go with nothing to hold onto anymore, if I recall was quite a desperate, out of control place I had to visit.

Yes it's a dark night when you have to come to terms with all your own delusions, and that's likely to go on for a good while, but the meditation can give us some skills of keeping an even keel as we go through it. Almost everyone I've meditated with has a pretty rough trot, so I'm not one to sell spiritual hope. I just advocate facing the truth of oneself, and where people have answers for others, I don't.

Yes I know that now, but going through it, it wasn't something I had as a tool to manage things in the way your aware of. Its all about truth of self. But the answers others gave me going through it, was often just enough to manage that void slowly and with less intensity alone. And of course those answers or coping tools from others, show me now, that was all a temporary transition of unveiling my truth and opening to change, so even answers and others that you may dismiss as not something you advocate, can be part of that love and support without any intent to make things right. If I recall back to that time, most of the support I needed were with others intuitively in synch with my needs so it was a godsend really. People were actually listening deeper in themselves as one with my point of being in the deep end. Seems to me how it works quite naturally..

I learned listening skills from being a musician, same deal, have to listen harder to learn all the notes of a song, and then play them so they sound just right - and we know music has a feel below the sound itself...

Yes, I observe my nephew learning guitar and the focus and listening is something you do notice, opens up a great deal of concentration.

Sounds good. I don;t have anything like that. At the mo I'm training to be a personal trainer, and I have discovered that the industry is generally a big distraction from that mind/body connection, and based on people who are 'busy' having a short time to get their exercise done - and it all become quite noisy and rushed with a lot of sales and marketing pushing it all along... my own training is hard, but it is also serene and based on the practice of mind body connection and perfection of ranges of motion.

Sounds exciting. You may well be a great mentor of others, connecting mind/body awareness, this plus all your skills, is a great package.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes I get it, I guess my own crisis of faith when everything turned upside down and didn't fit anymore, left me sitting in an empty hole, so even as religion fuelled many of my core fears, there is comfort in holding both fears and god in your core even if held in fear. Letting them all go with nothing to hold onto anymore, if I recall was quite a desperate, out of control place I had to visit.



Yes I know that now, but going through it, it wasn't something I had as a tool to manage things in the way your aware of. Its all about truth of self. But the answers others gave me going through it, was often just enough to manage that void slowly and with less intensity alone. And of course those answers or coping tools from others, show me now, that was all a temporary transition of unveiling my truth and opening to change, so even answers and others that you may dismiss as not something you advocate, can be part of that love and support without any intent to make things right. If I recall back to that time, most of the support I needed were with others intuitively in synch with my needs so it was a godsend really. People were actually listening deeper in themselves as one with my point of being in the deep end. Seems to me how it works quite naturally..






Yes, I observe my nephew learning guitar and the focus and listening is something you do notice, opens up a great deal of concentration.




Sounds exciting. You may well be a great mentor of others, connecting mind/body awareness, this plus all your skills, is a great package.

I'm attending an 'industry week' seminar thing now and a lot of it is just a big sales pitch, but a couple of them are more serious and more focused on correct motions and balance, so it's not all bad - some of it is really good.

I think in the mindfulness thing, this notion of truth is the essential ingredient, and yes the philosophers will have a lot to say about it (because they need to outsmart everyone) but I'm only talking about truthfulness in terms of honesty and trust, and how we might be involved in a lot of stories because facing personal truths is hard to do.

That to me is a fundamental, because mindfulness is to recognise things for what they are, and a story is a story - perhaps a very comforting one such as a religious story - or a very destructive and negative one - but everyone has to deal with esteem because we can only be who we think we are, and what we think and believe makes the life we have from day to day.

Mindfulness is like being the knower of one's life, like, 'I know what's going on with me'. It isn't so much, 'this feels bad and this is negative and I need to fix it'. It's just 'this is the way it is right now'. It doesn't make anything easier and it can't work as an escape from oneself. It can only reveal what is true of oneself - and this being seen is akin to you being revealed in the light of conscious awareness. The skill of it is to be OK so when the hard issues arise that like and dislike isn't so extreme as one can simply be like 'this' is the truth of how it is.

In fact, nothing needs to be done, and more often that not just leaving things alone lets them sort themselves out, but realising an issue more deeply might inspire a person to do something about it, so there's no golden rule - except of course knowing what it is at the root of ones own suffering.

So people are looking for joy and bliss, and we sell meditation by promising these to people, but the desire embedded in that can be a problem when people think it's a tactic to avoid life's pain. This dynamic tension between avoiding some things and chasing after other things, running from discomfort and chasing pleasure, is all a big movement and we can live in that, as we must, because we survive by avoiding pain that indicates harm to ourselves, but then we also need the skill of honestly finding out how we generate our own negativity, so we can stop blaming all the hard things in life and the other people who hurt us.

For me life gets hard because I don't have any excuses or justification stories, and I have to face everything I do fully. It was a lot easier when I have some stories to comfort me, but it was less honest, and even if we start to think it's better for me to be honest, we slide into that desire for some sort of pleasurable reward. It's more like it is better because it is purer. Actually truthfulness can lead to more pain in life, and there are no material rewards for oneself, there is nothing to gain by it... so I guess this might indicate how truthfulness can interrupt the ego complex through a disposition of pure ethics - not for the sake of getting anything as a reward for it.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm attending an 'industry week' seminar thing now and a lot of it is just a big sales pitch, but a couple of them are more serious and more focused on correct motions and balance, so it's not all bad - some of it is really good.

That's good.

I think in the mindfulness thing, this notion of truth is the essential ingredient, and yes the philosophers will have a lot to say about it (because they need to outsmart everyone) but I'm only talking about truthfulness in terms of honesty and trust, and how we might be involved in a lot of stories because facing personal truths is hard to do.

I understand that stories become a part of the letting go process and life itself, so it all fits the picture through the choices we make to unfold in our own truthfulness. Everything serves itself until it no longer does. I mean some stories play out for years and years, people deciding they like to sit in that zone, hold the truth of themselves within that space. For me in being more open to my own truthfulness, there is a natural awareness of others that brings up a greater impact in me to be mindful of the external world moving through their own stuff. In some ways where I am now, more open and clear, the harder it has been to just sit in all others stuff mindfully. I am not talking "work mode". More in general, or social mode. I noticed recently because my sensory awareness is becoming so clear and heightened in myself, that I actually can hear the past, present and future in the play on words of others still bound to themselves. Some jump out at me in ways where it is hitting my senses more directly. Usually I can sit on the surface with people, but lately this is showing me how "more mindful" in my practice I have to be in this way. This is something new and more clear now, so again for every opening and clear flow in myself, there is this awareness of others more heightened outside of me. So again another level of mindful awareness and not getting caught up in their altered reality that shows me quite openly where it is at. Its tricky because in this situation where you expect to chill and enjoy yourself, people's reality is hitting you in the face on every level when they are just talking about surface stuff. But again I am a great advocate that if your ignoring yourself in mindfulness of others and life in general, it will come up in everyway of your world and life to practice this stuff. As you know for its the lived experience of this, where I seek to practice this stuff, so their is no avoiding myself in this way. I think sometimes when you get people in a forum, safely seated on their bottoms, playing on line, not having much direct contact with life around them, but growing and opening through this means, its all well and good. One can derive a very grounded presence and believe they have their poo together, spouting knowledge and telling others how it is and should be, but ultimately take that into the real world and it really does open up another level of mindfulness as a practice for real. For me more than ever this mindfulness of self, is the place I am holding as the way through life, more than anything else. I cant avoid myself now and the nature of truthfulness speaks very direct to me in myself, not only for me, but the world around me. So its even harder now to hold your own presence when the world is going crazy. But its a good challenge and one I thrive on more naturally now. Even in groups I participate in real life with, they all have these needs to be doing externally for the world and others, which is great, but then I am looking into those heightened moments, thinking, but hey "get your own poo together, cant you hear yourself? Cant you see yourself? Can you feel that in yourself? And then I realize in that moment, how blind I was, how at times I couldn't hear the truth, how I couldn't see myself until I could, I suppressed feelings to protect myself and all that jazz. And hearing and seeing it all, feeling their unresolved stuff and all that jazz, I realize how easy it becomes to just be alone..hehehe

That to me is a fundamental, because mindfulness is to recognise things for what they are, and a story is a story - perhaps a very comforting one such as a religious story - or a very destructive and negative one - but everyone has to deal with esteem because we can only be who we think we are, and what we think and believe makes the life we have from day to day.

Yep looking at things more directly as I mentioned. Its just finding the mindfulness within that all exposed view that hits you directly when your clearer in yourself and more open to notice. It is hard when the story and the words coming out show the destructive nature of itself playing out as one. The mindfulness in staying present in that space of another reflecting to me what I have been, what I am open to clear in me now is like sitting with yourself exposed in everyway without even trying to be. I see these situations as positive awareness especially when you have people who don't want to move forward. Allowing but respecting mindfully that space. Its hard all the same, because your limited to the walls they are continually reinforcing over and over to keep their world as it is. I am very aware of more, that is not the issue, I feel much more even without their story in that space deeper. Its more that they content in this way and I find that difficult to grasp at times. Silence and a listening ear even as I know, is golden in these times I guess..well I am learning that. And mindfulness with someone who doesn't want to know, doesn't want to tell themselves the truth, is a deeper gain for me in my own practice and being in the world with others.

Mindfulness is like being the knower of one's life, like, 'I know what's going on with me'. It isn't so much, 'this feels bad and this is negative and I need to fix it'. It's just 'this is the way it is right now'. It doesn't make anything easier and it can't work as an escape from oneself. It can only reveal what is true of oneself - and this being seen is akin to you being revealed in the light of conscious awareness. The skill of it is to be OK so when the hard issues arise that like and dislike isn't so extreme as one can simply be like 'this' is the truth of how it is.

Yes I understand all this. It fits as I see it. And those hard issues, are not always about you, but they definitely can affect you which will bring you back to you to notice what is there in deeper truths in this way.

In fact, nothing needs to be done, and more often that not just leaving things alone lets them sort themselves out, but realising an issue more deeply might inspire a person to do something about it, so there's no golden rule - except of course knowing what it is at the root of ones own suffering.

Yes that is where I am now gaining deeper in myself. Leave things alone, let them sort out for others. How I manage myself in others in this way, actually shows me deeper how to stay present with stuff I don't need to do anything about. Even with people around me, wanting, needing to do, fix etc that too is a challenge to let go and just stay present deeper in myself. So far its working and showing me the ease at which mindfulness becomes without thoughts of "needing to be that", more seeing the practice of it leads itself more naturally over time with practice.

So people are looking for joy and bliss, and we sell meditation by promising these to people, but the desire embedded in that can be a problem when people think it's a tactic to avoid life's pain. This dynamic tension between avoiding some things and chasing after other things, running from discomfort and chasing pleasure, is all a big movement and we can live in that, as we must, because we survive by avoiding pain that indicates harm to ourselves, but then we also need the skill of honestly finding out how we generate our own negativity, so we can stop blaming all the hard things in life and the other people who hurt us.

Yep avoidance is running rife in this day and age..I will share a little story with you about the guitar son. He is quite obsessed with his Ipad, mother takes him off it for two weeks. He is eight years old. She has been noticing he has been more tearful in that time, but one night in his room, she walked in to find him sobbing deeply. Like deep in his core crying. She quickly went to his aid and hugged him. After a little while she asked him if he wanted to talk about what was upsetting him. He said through his outpouring and chocking up, he would try. He said to her, "I have been thinking about existence". She was shocked for moment, collected herself and asked him, "What is upsetting you so much about this?" Well he said, "I have been thinking about, what if I don't exist?" (tears flooding) "what am I?" "Where would I be?" It all poured out of him. "And if I don't exist, and you don't exist and Nan and Pa don't exist, If P (meaning me) doesn't exist, where are we all?" His mum preceded to give him what she perceived he needed in that moment, which settled and calmed him down, enough so he could get back to sleep.

For me life gets hard because I don't have any excuses or justification stories, and I have to face everything I do fully. It was a lot easier when I have some stories to comfort me, but it was less honest, and even if we start to think it's better for me to be honest, we slide into that desire for some sort of pleasurable reward. It's more like it is better because it is purer. Actually truthfulness can lead to more pain in life, and there are no material rewards for oneself, there is nothing to gain by it... so I guess this might indicate how truthfulness can interrupt the ego complex through a disposition of pure ethics - not for the sake of getting anything as a reward for it.

Yes I get it. It was a lot easier when I had reason for being, now its more difficult as I am aware in myself with life around me. In facing it all head on, I have no where to go now when life around me shows me itself. With no reason other then its "life" as it is, you can only manage and practice a more mindful awareness of others and life and just get on with it. I wouldn't want to live in the old way of being, it does feel more pure now and for me regardless of what is moving around me, my centre of being smiles at the many things in life I am happy for, thankful for and so I enjoy my life and create in many ways of it. Living with a more clear non attached relating, has opened my own freedom in me to immerse deeper and feel more rewarded from within myself regardless of what is moving outside of me. That to me is the ultimate, where I gain from the little things or the simplicity in life. There is always something to enjoy in life. Its what I create and make it to be really...

[Ground]

[jonesboy]

Some good honest conversation going on in this thread.

I see nothing that is funny.

Thank you both.