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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #1  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:07 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Is our version of god mostly in-house?

I was responding to a post in another thread and was finally able to put into words something that I've been mulling over for some time. I wanted to make a separate thread specifically on this since it's a possibility that's not normally considered. :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathrin
I say both. To me they are on one "string". Before entering the Spirit/God realm, I have to cross the Self realm. Through Self I come to God. I see me as the person, as a farthest out extreme of God... like opposing God but holding its capabilities in a way, since I'm just a copy of God. So, Self is just an area, which I have to walk through when walking from God to me, the person (on a plain consciousness level).
I suspect that this is only a part of the story while much of what is actually occurring is really much closer to home.

We tend to take this leap, we say "us here" (referring to the sense of normality that daily defines our experience) and then god "there" or "within" or "beyond ego". It's assumed that when we enter a bliss state that somehow this is relevant to a god (which incidentally is a god of our own making and expectation).

So, there is our experience, and then there is god. What if, perhaps, that this isn't the case?

Our conscious self is incredibly limited, by design, in order to track and maintain our moving connection with our environment. Our conscious self has evolved as a navigator, of sorts, in order help us survive within a continually shifting set of complex variables. Much of the processing that goes on in our brain is done as a background operation. We are not consciously aware of the intensity that's maintained by our bodies awareness of itself. This is intentional. It would be essentially impossible for us to move even an inch if we were privy to the feedback from every nerve in our body, if every smell were to dominate our attention, if to move every muscle was a product of conscious thought, we would be swamped if all of what our body was exposed to was prominent to our immediate attention.

And yet there's an aspect of our body that is still monitoring these details. Billions of streams of data is being processed by highly complex censoring throughout our overall biological system. If all is well then none of this is brought to our attention, but should there be an issue we'll be specifically and consciously informed. It's too hot, it's too cold, our body just got cut in this one place, the ground is uneven we need to be consciously involved so we can navigate this successfully, there was a rustle in the woods could this be a lion?

But unless there's a good reason for attuning our attention this process of monitoring remains a background operation.

By comparison, the mind that is monitoring our overall condition is incredibly intense, by a massive degree, in relation to the amount of resources that are dedicated to our conscious ability to think. The numbers are staggering. In computer terms, we consciously process only about 4 megs a second while our unconscious self is trucking along as high as 400 billion bits of info a second (the number keeps going up as our research improves). So this means, that just outside of our conscious ability to perceive is a roaring set of activity that's far beyond our conscious ability to imagine.

So what would happen should we tap into this process? If our conscious self was able to shift just a little and tune-into this processor of almost infinitely more complex operation. It would feel like we'd just stepped into a most intense house of god. Consciously we'd be lost to the complexity. We'd be overwhelmed by the manor in which everything combined, we'd be humbled by how much we don't know or could keep up with. We would feel we're in the presence of "god".

So what if, what if all these thoughts about a deity is not really "out there" at all, but Right Here? What if we've projected a bodily internal process onto an image of godliness while all along it's "in-house".

Wouldn't that be a hoot. What if we've been worshiping upon far, and projecting way out there, an actual internal process that's right at our own door?
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2017, 03:07 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Well, there are different sorts of narratives through which people understand their place in the universe... but some people think their own 'version' is truer or 'more superior' to other people's, which actually brings about misunderstandings in the sense that we can mathematically determine cause and effect and accurately predict outcomes, but tend to implement this knowledge in a destructive way. We have strayed too far into the symbolic space and taken up residence in it, taken it to be true, and lost connectivity with life in the natural world and personal connectivity with our selves; choosing, apparently, to remain conscious only on a personal level, which is a construct of conditioning and thought, and because that is 'all we know' - that's how we 'take ourselves to be' - we strive to survive in the sense of preserving symbolic structures which reflectively indicate a false identity. It's a huge problem, but it's ultimately self destructive, and it will sort itself out through a sort of self annihilation. This a very frightening to a majority of folk, because there is a imagined ghost like figure who pretends to be 'who we are', without which one would have no knowledge, nor definition, nor narrative, to describe their living being.

I moved your response to me from another thread to this one because it fits-in so perfectly with what I'm pointing to in this thread. Our understanding of this process of (almost absolute) self-identification via our own definitions, via practiced assumptions, forms a container around our perceptions that we rarely, if ever, leave. If we attempt to adapt to something "new" we will do so as an extension of what we're already assuming. This holds true for our dreaming self as well as our wakeful-navigator interpretations.

Each of us perceive independently, but we do so based on the imagery that floats by us while being raised, educated, and cajoled by parents and culture. Anything we deem "new" will actually be a retrofit, and will generally serve as an expansion of our already established assumptions.

These interpretations may be challenged to some degree were we to involve ourselves with the natural world, by having to adapt to it's needs and not ours. We will have to go outside ourselves to some degree if we're raising plants or adapting to a new infant (neither plants or infants will adjust to our programming since they are locked into a rhythm of their own exclusive needs).

So generally we inhabit a self contained fantasy. This, in itself, isn't bad, it's perhaps necessary for the purpose of navigating among others, but it's highly informative if we keep this in mind. This illuminates that much of what we do involves projection, self-contained expectation, and a persistent catering to our internal dialogue.

We form religions in this way, we set-off on spiritual inquires from a programed perspective, we will interpret dreams and encounters based on pre-contained assertions, much of which was culturally inspired.

I do see the 'realization' of this as good news! A great deal of our thinking is dedicated toward adapting to a seesawing between our own inner expectation and with how we perceive the nagging expectations of others. And since we are now mostly defining ourselves in relation to cultural-mentally-created-components (and yet somehow we survive :) we may loosen our binding toward taking it all serious. We may fully drop the pretense of assuming that our interpretations are based on the natural-real and fully realize that we're floating, perceptually, on artificially created clouds.
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2017, 03:27 PM
Baile Baile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Is our version of god...
Yes, very much so. There is a reason why nobody asks if burning witches is still a viable option. Neither do I see threads with people discussing our flat earth, the sun orbiting our planet, or the topic of sacrificing goats to appease the heavens. The reason for that has much to do with human consciousness having evolved in the past many thousands of years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
So generally we inhabit a self contained fantasy... we're floating, perceptually, on artificially created clouds.
If I understand what you're suggesting here as it applies to spiritual-beliefs, I'd say it's more this way: When people come to understand that Dark Age-era belief structures and consciousness forms are no longer relevant, the first response is a kind of nihilistic distancing from all things of a tenet/doctrine nature. It's like someone who's been burned in a relationship and then claims love stinks. No, there are in fact expressions of love that are quite healthy and very real. Love isn't the problem; the problem is the way one goes about forming a relationship to questions about love.

Last edited by Baile : 12-06-2017 at 04:47 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:53 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
If I understand what you're suggesting here as it applies to spiritual-beliefs,
I mentioned the word "god" in the heading but I'm actually referring to every thought and most every impulse that daily crosses our minds. There is essentially nothing that occurs to us (thought-wise) which isn't domestically inspired or conditionally entwined among our growing host of exposures since we stepped-in as young and influence-predisposed infants. I'm currently reading the book "Paleofantasy: What evolution really tells us about Sex, Diet, and how we live" by Marlene Zuk. She concurs with many of the other investigators that I've read which are focused on the way that we've oriented to our planet as a species. There is no truly set format to draw on since humans have been fluidly adjusting to geographical variables with the rolls of females and males all drifting among differing cultures. While within each culture the habits are rather consistent. It's all in how we were trained. And yes, DNA does play a part in a lot of this but with even that the expressions are variable.

When we look toward the past and attempt to draw direction from past cultures we'll likely never get what they were experiencing directly. You would have to have been raised within that culture in order to view through their eyes. There is more to orienting as a human than just adhering to a list of beliefs. There are emotional templates that are culturally ingrained which become burned into our responsive tendencies and unconscious assumptions through direct and indirect exposure.

Beliefs are the surface representation of inner assumptions, the "witch" thing was a result of cultural conditioning for that period among those whose imagination was contained in that way. In other parts of the world, and at the very same time period, no such witch hunts occurred.

The overall intellectual aspects of this I got when I was around 12 years old. And yet over time I keep revisiting this insight and am continually impressed by how deep this all goes. We are indeed shaped in a potent unconscious way from the moment we're born, which tends to color most everything we view through those lenses. This easily blows over into our spiritual beliefs and religious attachments. All this is part of the same mix.
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  #5  
Old 13-06-2017, 11:18 AM
Baile Baile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Beliefs are the surface representation of inner assumptions
You speak of beliefs, and I agree. You never seem to mention eternal truth, and I keep pointing that out. Two different things.

God is a belief-specific concept.
Heaven and hell are belief-specific concepts.
Spirit is eternal truth.
The soul is eternal truth.

Human descriptions commonly associated with the concept "God" can be likened to describing the ocean as a puddle of liquid. Why? Because the human being stands on the seashore and looks out. That's what beliefs are: standing on the outside and apart from while looking at. No real tactile relationship to the thing. And from that perspective s/he sees a body of water or something that looks like it might be water (that's the assumption given that's what s/he has been taught about oceans). And it appears smallish... same as a large puddle would appear up-close.

But now get in a boat and start motoring or sailing for days and weeks until you've maybe reached mid-ocean. Now it's no longer a puddle. Rather, it has become the thing that is everything. It has become that which is all-encompassing, and absolute; the one singular reality. Ocean and ocean and ocean. It exists this way, and that way, and in every direction you turn. That is Spirit. Much different from human beings' descriptions of God.

It is said God is unknowable. Most interpret that as, "Yes, I understand God is indeed that immense. But I can still know God." No, what that's really saying is whenever the human being imagines God, they are only ever conjuring up in their minds a puddle-sized perspective-distortion of the thing. What it actually means is this: Everything Exists. In bolded text because it's that important an understanding. There is nothing in this Existing Thing that can be separated out from it. Human understanding that imagines something as being separate from this Everything -- a God that created all this, as one example -- is puddle-perspective and puddle-understanding.

The reason many are stuck in this puddle-perspective is because they cannot grasp the idea of something Existing, in and of itself. Just. Existing. Having no beginning. And no end. Nothing that created it, because it always was. Nothing that can or will ever destroy it, because it cannot not be. The unknowable is Everything That Is, and that awaits creative expression via the conscious impulse. And here's a mighty question: Why would that which is Everything, require creative expression? What's to create if it's already Everything? The answer has to do with relative truth versus absolute truth. But if one doesn't believe in relative truth and absolute truth and/or eternal truths of any kind, then that's a question that will probably go unanswered for them.

Last edited by Baile : 13-06-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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  #6  
Old 18-06-2017, 02:59 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
You speak of beliefs, and I agree. You never seem to mention eternal truth, and I keep pointing that out. Two different things.

God is a belief-specific concept.
Heaven and hell are belief-specific concepts.
Spirit is eternal truth.
The soul is eternal truth.

Do you not see the humor in this? Anything that we would assign-to or to think-about in relation to 'eternal 'truth' would also be based souly on beliefs. Just because we dress those beliefs in such a way that suggests otherwise, we are still stuck with applying beliefs none the less.

How can we then say there are two different things when we're still applying the same process to both? :)
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  #7  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:25 PM
Baile Baile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Billions of streams of data is being processed by highly complex censoring throughout our overall biological system.
What is this exactly, some kind of organic matrix theory? I've come across similar statements in many of your posts but never got clear on what you were saying exactly. So you're saying we should focus on the human being as a biological system, rather than as a soul-spirit being? Is that correct? If so, I'd say the baby is dangling out the window right now after throwing out the religious-belief bathwater.
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:48 PM
MARDAV70 MARDAV70 is offline
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I kinda wonder if there's a kind of consciousness that's developed in our DNA. I've wondered about this for some time. This seems to be what you're saying, organic born, without saying it...if I'm understanding you correctly.
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:32 PM
Baile Baile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARDAV70
I kinda wonder if there's a kind of consciousness that's developed in our DNA.
And from whence did that consciousness impulse arise? Likewise this DNA, where did that originate? When we die, what happens to this DNA? How does a physical-material substance and manifestation like DNA, affect the soul in spirit?

When the bathwater requires changing between consciousness paradigms, let's do that yes, just watch out for little Trixie and place her off to the side before you lift the tub and heave.
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  #10  
Old 13-06-2017, 09:46 AM
MARDAV70 MARDAV70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
And from whence did that consciousness impulse arise? Likewise this DNA, where did that originate? When we die, what happens to this DNA? How does a physical-material substance and manifestation like DNA, affect the soul in spirit?

When the bathwater requires changing between consciousness paradigms, let's do that yes, just watch out for little Trixie and place her off to the side before you lift the tub and heave.
Possibly whence whatever causes DNA to develop whatever genes that make up the DNA of different species as life diversifies (?). We still have the gene to develop a tail...it's merely "turned off"...for the most part. Chickens still have the gene to develop teeth (so I've read). Maybe "a type of consciousness" is the wrong wording because those genes are identified. Yet, have we really learned all there is to know about DNA? Whence commeth the ability of DNA to switch it's own genes on or off or to even produce new ones? Lol...I'm no geneticist, so I don't know if we have or haven't, though I can't imagine we'll never hear any new developments in genetic research.
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