Old testament god

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by NIRVANA

Is God really as evil as the old testament makes out? Im sure god does not really like genocide,infantcide,etc

God is a reflection of people wherever they're at. We believe things about God today that people will look back on in the future and think how evil it is. They will say 'they had a primitive and cruel god'. And there will be people who think our idea of God today applies to them in the future, causing many to say 'is God really as evil as the people in 21st century believed he was?'

People back then didn't think their views were evil, they wouldn't even be able to comprehend such an idea. The same goes for today, we think our moral standards are so right, yet in the future they will look back and see how corrupt we all are. Everyone loves to think of themselves as right. Excuse me, we 'know' we're right. lol

[Xan]

Originally Posted by psychoslice

Yes I agree that its not nice, but in truth there is no good and evil, this is a hard thing to understand while we are coming from the mind, and I agree that as a species we need rules to live by, for how else could we all survive together, but again that still doesn't mean there is good and evil.

This all depends on where you're seeing from, Robert. From pure empty awareness you're right... there's not only no good and evil, but also no computer to type on. Here in duality... well... it's another story.

I'm wondering... Do you feel compassion for those in this world who are suffering?


Xan

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by Xan

This all depends on where you're seeing from, Robert. From pure empty awareness you're right... there's not only no good and evil, but also no computer to type on. Here in duality... well... it's another story.

I'm wondering... Do you feel compassion for those in this world who are suffering?


Xan

Yes I do feel compassion, compassion of knowing that they can't see the bigger picture, and I know even if you do know the bigger picture that there will still be sadness, but its not being overwhelmed with sadness in a neurotic way, its not clinging onto the sadness, its just see it and letting it go.

[Xan]

I'm with you there, Robert... most surely.


Xan

King Saul was commanded to kill all of Amalek when he was made king. In his mercy, Saul spared some of the women and children. He was rebuked for doing so by the prophet Samuel and this was considered the final straw which made him unworthy of remaining king. Kingship was later passed on to David.

What I am trying to say with this is that the Jewish people are, by nature, a moral and compassionate people. Sometimes we are commanded by God to do things that we do not understand either - but God's word is His word. God knows more than any of us what is right for the future. If He were to come to you directly and say 'there is a child who will grow up to become a serial killer and will take the lives of hundreds if you do not kill him now'. If he showed you signs and wonders that proved it was the word and will of God and that it were true, would you kill the child? It would be a very difficult decision to make, even if you knew 100% that it were true.

The statements made would only be evil if they were wrong and deception. If they are true then the statements serve good.

Because Saul did not follow the word of God, Haman was born. If you know the story of Esther, Mordechai and Haman you will know that Haman was an evil man who almost succeeded in wiping out ALL of the Jewish people. That is only one example of the evils caused by Amalek's descendants.

God as we see him is perfect in every way. He is eternally loving and compassionate and He loves His children - all of them - Jew and Gentile alike. But sometimes He knows things that we don't and commands us to do things we don't understand. When that happens the question is are we strong enough to follow His word despite what we believe?

Look at the story of Abraham and Isaac. He was commanded to kill His only son, who he had prayed for and begged for his entire life. Isaac's birth was a miracle and a gift, Abraham's only reward after years of toil, suffering and service. God did not need to explain to Abraham why Isaac should die, it was enough to Abraham that God commanded it; he trusted that God knew more and that this atrocious act would somehow serve the greater good. It turns out, thankfully, that it was a test and because Abraham passed this test, of perfect trust in God, he was rewarded and revered.

Not all of us are capable of trusting God so completely. I understand why you would doubt His words. You firstly don't believe they came from God, and secondly wouldn't agree with the words even if you knew for a fact they did. Nonetheless, we are small and God is big and whatever He commands MUST be true.

That being said, I will respond to your specific quotes, which actually have nothing to do with genocide or infantcide and have all been taken out of context... like so, so many anti-Torah quotes. The ONLY time God promotes Genocide and Infantcide is with respect to Amalek, a singular nation of pure evil, which I briefly mentioned above.

Kill Nonbelievers
This is speaking about a specific time when God came to Asa, it is not a general commandment. It was one of many times when the Jewish people were led astray by idolatry and a prophet had to appear to bring them all back. If you read the chapter you will see that every person at the assembly renewed their devotion to God and none were killed. Read the verse in context.

Kill False Prophets
This is a prophecy not a commandment. Read the verse in context.

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
If you read the quote you gave me you will see it is not 'kill an entire town if one person worships another god', but rather 'destroy a town if all its citizens become idolators'. The Talmud discusses this passage and asks the same as you, 'how could God condemn an entire city'? The Talmud states that this is intended as a warning to the people and that never in the history of Israel did it have to be done.


Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
This is only if the woman was assumed to be a virgin before hand. If the woman was not a virgin and concealed it then it is to be assumed that she performed an adulterous act and should be punished as with all other adulterous acts. If however she was known to have been raped or to have had a legal sexual encounter then there is no problem with her getting married without being a virgin.

[Seawolf]

You have to really stretch your imagination to make the Old Testament apply today. The thing I don't undertand is why do you need to?

[adamkade]

Originally Posted by Xan

The "God" of the Old Testament was a powerful spirit being claiming to be who he was not. He's the one who had all those qualities --- jealousy, vindictiveness, wiping out people who crossed him, etc...

The New Testament begins with Jesus bringing the New Covenant, bringing back to people's awareness the true God which is Love Itself. I'm not a Christian but many of us are still working on that project.


Xan

I agree. i am with the snake. I think actually there was a clever switch. The real God jumped into snake form and told humanity "hey get out of there, its a golden cage!"

The old god thought: "I am jealous god, there is no other god before me."

Doh. If you are a jealous god then you are confirming that there is another god. If not, then who are you jealous of?"

[adamkade]

Originally Posted by Yamah

King Saul was commanded to kill all of Amalek when he was made king. In his mercy, Saul spared some of the women and children. He was rebuked for doing so by the prophet Samuel and this was considered the final straw which made him unworthy of remaining king. Kingship was later passed on to David.

What I am trying to say with this is that the Jewish people are, by nature, a moral and compassionate people. Sometimes we are commanded by God to do things that we do not understand either - but God's word is His word. God knows more than any of us what is right for the future. If He were to come to you directly and say 'there is a child who will grow up to become a serial killer and will take the lives of hundreds if you do not kill him now'. If he showed you signs and wonders that proved it was the word and will of God and that it were true, would you kill the child? It would be a very difficult decision to make, even if you knew 100% that it were true.

The statements made would only be evil if they were wrong and deception. If they are true then the statements serve good.

Because Saul did not follow the word of God, Haman was born. If you know the story of Esther, Mordechai and Haman you will know that Haman was an evil man who almost succeeded in wiping out ALL of the Jewish people. That is only one example of the evils caused by Amalek's descendants.

God as we see him is perfect in every way. He is eternally loving and compassionate and He loves His children - all of them - Jew and Gentile alike. But sometimes He knows things that we don't and commands us to do things we don't understand. When that happens the question is are we strong enough to follow His word despite what we believe?

Look at the story of Abraham and Isaac. He was commanded to kill His only son, who he had prayed for and begged for his entire life. Isaac's birth was a miracle and a gift, Abraham's only reward after years of toil, suffering and service. God did not need to explain to Abraham why Isaac should die, it was enough to Abraham that God commanded it; he trusted that God knew more and that this atrocious act would somehow serve the greater good. It turns out, thankfully, that it was a test and because Abraham passed this test, of perfect trust in God, he was rewarded and revered.

Not all of us are capable of trusting God so completely. I understand why you would doubt His words. You firstly don't believe they came from God, and secondly wouldn't agree with the words even if you knew for a fact they did. Nonetheless, we are small and God is big and whatever He commands MUST be true.

That being said, I will respond to your specific quotes, which actually have nothing to do with genocide or infantcide and have all been taken out of context... like so, so many anti-Torah quotes. The ONLY time God promotes Genocide and Infantcide is with respect to Amalek, a singular nation of pure evil, which I briefly mentioned above.

Kill Nonbelievers
This is speaking about a specific time when God came to Asa, it is not a general commandment. It was one of many times when the Jewish people were led astray by idolatry and a prophet had to appear to bring them all back. If you read the chapter you will see that every person at the assembly renewed their devotion to God and none were killed. Read the verse in context.

Kill False Prophets
This is a prophecy not a commandment. Read the verse in context.

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
If you read the quote you gave me you will see it is not 'kill an entire town if one person worships another god', but rather 'destroy a town if all its citizens become idolators'. The Talmud discusses this passage and asks the same as you, 'how could God condemn an entire city'? The Talmud states that this is intended as a warning to the people and that never in the history of Israel did it have to be done.


Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
This is only if the woman was assumed to be a virgin before hand. If the woman was not a virgin and concealed it then it is to be assumed that she performed an adulterous act and should be punished as with all other adulterous acts. If however she was known to have been raped or to have had a legal sexual encounter then there is no problem with her getting married without being a virgin.

If god said this to me: "'there is a child who will grow up to become a serial killer and will take the lives of hundreds if you do not kill him now" I would say go kiss my big fat hairy Posterior." I would point out that A: that if you were the almighty God you would not need me to do this, you could do this yourself! B: If you knew me you wouldn't even ask me to do this because you would know my answer before I said this. C: There is no higher authority than the self (I got that from God himself) D: Do not kill. If then God asks you to kill it would make him a hypocrite E: you are trying to rationalize an idea an obvious manipulation. Why would God give you free will and then command you to do something? Again, that would make God a hypocrite. F: If God wanted something to be done, do you not think he could compel you to do it. After all, if he was inclined to killing someone (so let me get this straight, he gave them the choice to walk whatever path they wanted too, but then he decides arhhhh! I didn't know they were going to do that so he smites them?) he would do it himself. G) If God is like this then who needs Satan. Damn he makes Satan look quite a bit like a good deal.

If there is a Satan, if I were him, and was intending to do evil on a global scale. Then I would make out I was God, get everyone to believe it, and then go tell them to kill everyone that tried to usurp my authority.

Wait a minute, I think I am onto *facepalm Something. Oh dear - word of advice, wake up. You are trying to rationalize something which is profoundly silly.

A: that if you were the almighty God you would not need me to do this, you could do this yourself!
As with everything in the world, God would be giving the chance to His creation to gain merit, overcome his own selfish desire and ideas and perform an important deed.

B: If you knew me you wouldn't even ask me to do this because you would know my answer before I said this.
Good point. Probably why the only time he asked it was of Abraham and the kings of Israel - because he knew they could make the hard decisions for what is right.

C: There is no higher authority than the self (I got that from God himself)
Um... no.

D: Do not kill. If then God asks you to kill it would make him a hypocrite
Do not MURDER. There are noted exceptions, such as in war, in punishment or in divine decree.

E: you are trying to rationalize an idea an obvious manipulation. Why would God give you free will and then command you to do something? Again, that would make God a hypocrite.
See point A above.

F: If God wanted something to be done, do you not think he could compel you to do it. After all, if he was inclined to killing someone (so let me get this straight, he gave them the choice to walk whatever path they wanted too, but then he decides arhhhh! I didn't know they were going to do that so he smites them?) he would do it himself.
As you said, free will.

G) If God is like this then who needs Satan. Damn he makes Satan look quite a bit like a good deal.
Satan is a servant of God. The Christians mistakenly believe that there is a duality of good and evil. To God, all is for the good. God is all powerful and all good. All of creation is under His control. Thus, nothing can exist within this world which opposes His Perfect Will.

Originally Posted by adamkade

If god said this to me: "'there is a child who will grow up to become a serial killer and will take the lives of hundreds if you do not kill him now" I would say go kiss my big fat hairy Posterior." I would point out that A: that if you were the almighty God you would not need me to do this, you could do this yourself! B: If you knew me you wouldn't even ask me to do this because you would know my answer before I said this. C: There is no higher authority than the self (I got that from God himself) D: Do not kill. If then God asks you to kill it would make him a hypocrite E: you are trying to rationalize an idea an obvious manipulation. Why would God give you free will and then command you to do something? Again, that would make God a hypocrite. F: If God wanted something to be done, do you not think he could compel you to do it. After all, if he was inclined to killing someone (so let me get this straight, he gave them the choice to walk whatever path they wanted too, but then he decides arhhhh! I didn't know they were going to do that so he smites them?) he would do it himself. G) If God is like this then who needs Satan. Damn he makes Satan look quite a bit like a good deal.

If there is a Satan, if I were him, and was intending to do evil on a global scale. Then I would make out I was God, get everyone to believe it, and then go tell them to kill everyone that tried to usurp my authority.

Wait a minute, I think I am onto *facepalm Something. Oh dear - word of advice, wake up. You are trying to rationalize something which is profoundly silly.

If there is a devil he maybe the god from the O.T.

Its kind of strange how we have a loving god of the bible who wants genocide,infantcide,slavery etc

And we have an evil devil who is evil enough to want man to have knowledge