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  #41  
Old 23-10-2017, 03:39 AM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerubiel
Thats true, many do fake it. I see very well tho, and so I can tell. Besides when I am loved I feel it in my heart chakra. When I am loved I feel love too.
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  #42  
Old 23-10-2017, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerubiel
I just love love! What other reasons are there?
But are you in Love with Love itself or just the romantic notion of it? And when the romantics are all gone and the relationship 'gets real', what then?
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  #43  
Old 23-10-2017, 02:27 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerubiel
Nah, I am not out for just sex. I am over that. I am out for something so deep. A partner I can lay down with and stare into her eyes and have us both fall so deeply into each other. Sitting in silence and just knowing what each other is thinking and feeling. I am a hopeless romantic.

I get what you mean by predators taking advantage of love for means of sexual intercourse. I am too soft for that. If I tried that I would liekly just end up falling in love for real. Women are such beautiful creatures.

Kerubiel, that's good! If you want something deep and real in partnership specifically, however, then I hate to break it to you, but you cannot fixate on the physicality, on the beauty, and the romance. That is all fleeting, I hate to say. And you're still trying to take the route of sensuality and sentimentality (the low road) to come to the top of the mountain. It just won't ever take you there.

What will remain after all that superficiality fades, is authentic love for one another as people and as beloved friends. That enduring admiration and respect and love for one another as people and as souls...and from this, desire is sustained and illuminated. Not from the bodies per se. The love illuminates the desire and that is what makes the particular body and soul, heart and mind of this particular person desirable. For a woman, physical desire is very, very specific to the person. And in order to be on the same page, you have to be in a place of authentic love in partnership with that woman.

If you bring authentic love (seeks the highest good of the other and nothing to do with sex or your needs) into partnership, you can exchange real desire long-term. But it doesn't come to the vast majority of men because they go about it the wrong way. They see a pretty face or body and they think their own desire alone will guide them to that place of joy and love, as long as they can freely take from the woman what they need to boost themselves momentarily, or perhaps longer-term. And yet if the woman is like the vast majority of women, she will not desire you physically long-term -- if ever -- without a mutual authentic love for one another as people. Your [ultimately fleeting] desire or bliss doesn't do it. You can't power or shag your way into authentic love. You have to bring your own authentic love for humanity and then engage and allow time for this particular connection to grow.

Everyone has to bring their own love and appreciation for themselves and for the other as other -- platonically, as a person. Not desire for them as a sexual object, which is where most men fall down. If you bring your desire and your needs, then you're looking for someone to give you something (sex, adoration) to fill yourself up...which means on your own, you're empty or lacking, so what can you give to another?

If that's all you have, your lack, your lust, and your sentimentality (romance), you have nothing. It peters out if there is nothing foundational that pre-dated the sex, in which to ground the sex . The platonic, agape (authentic) love is that foundation. For self and others. Let your agape love, your authentic love for others -- men AND women -- pour out of you freely, from the heart centre. Not in a lustful or grasping or greedy, promiscuous sense, but simply in appreciation for others as they are.

After you get to know someone better, you certainly may honestly own if you desire life partnership, if you are willing to commit with integrity. Otherwise, IMO you should just pay for it and refrain from deceit and misdirection simply to obtain sex or a partnership. A large proportion of men know they are or have been guilty of deceit and misdirection of others at some point, in order to get sex and touch and company, knowing full well they had no intention of commitment long-term. If you are tired of predators, then avoid being predatory by means of exploitation and lies, as well.

Peace & blessings
7L
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  #44  
Old 23-10-2017, 04:24 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Kerubiel, that's good! If you want something deep and real in partnership specifically, however, then I hate to break it to you, but you cannot fixate on the physicality, on the beauty, and the romance. That is all fleeting, I hate to say. And you're still trying to take the route of sensuality and sentimentality (the low road) to come to the top of the mountain. It just won't ever take you there.

What will remain after all that superficiality fades, is authentic love for one another as people and as beloved friends. That enduring admiration and respect and love for one another as people and as souls...and from this, desire is sustained and illuminated. Not from the bodies per se. The love illuminates the desire and that is what makes the particular body and soul, heart and mind of this particular person desirable. For a woman, physical desire is very, very specific to the person. And in order to be on the same page, you have to be in a place of authentic love in partnership with that woman.

If you bring authentic love (seeks the highest good of the other and nothing to do with sex or your needs) into partnership, you can exchange real desire long-term. But it doesn't come to the vast majority of men because they go about it the wrong way.
I have to disagree with you here, 7 - in the sense that "All roads ultimately 'lead' home." The 'way' you are advocating (as not being 'wrong') is just one 'way', IMO. What is called 'God', which could just as well be called 'Love', 'Light' etc., etc., etc. is BOTH 'imminent' and 'transcendant'. And one has to begin/start any 'journey' from wherever one is at present. All too many (IMO) try to get 'there' (where you speak of) by 'adopting' the kind of 'perspective' and 'attitude' you promote as being 'authentic' when they are not (yet) at the point in their soul's journey where such perspective and attitude is 'natural' (i.e. truly 'organic'). They are, at best, 'pretenders' in such regard, and as a result don't actually open themselves up to the kinds of experiences which, if and as 'digested', would result in their becoming authentically so. I suggest that any reader who 'agrees' with the quite eloquently-rationalized 'message' that you present 'check' to see if what I say in regards to the authenticity vs. pretense dynamics possibly being in play.

I offer my 'teaching' in the above regard in form of a 'story' (pertaining to the dynamics of desire and loss) I once heard, to wit: " 'God' 'gives' you everything you could possibly love and desire and then one by one takes them away from you until all that you are left with is Love Itself!"

My advice: Though 'men' (males-principle oriented psyches) may take more than one lifetime to 'reach' the point where they become dispassionately 'loving' (there are also those who do that in the course of 'maturing' in any given lifetime, IMO) , watch that you don't fall into the 'trap' of seeking/trying/aiming to 'leap-frog' the process by avoiding 'passion' in the 'name' of only being 'committed' to 'true' love - especially not in a 'holier than though' mode which, IMO, may really 'kill' (i.e. 'stop') the process of becoming Love Itself. Such 'avoidance' a 'trap' many 'women' (female-principle oriented psyches) fall into, IMO, which is why it makes sense to me that one has to incarnate and experience both 'ways' to 'get' to 'wholeness' (which is different than what many think and feel is 'holiness', I think).

My 'sense' is and so I am betting that Kerubiel is closer to being/becoming and so will get there sooner than many of the 'holier' (seeming) folks 'here'. His unabashed 'boldness' in the above regard has opened the doorway to heaven to him, I think. Not that I know everything, so I don't know for sure.
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  #45  
Old 23-10-2017, 04:57 PM
A human Being A human Being is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerubiel
I desire love because love is tasty. Its delicious. Its sacred and amazing. Who doesnt want to be loved?
The spiritually-correct answer to that would be, 'Those who know that their true nature is love', though I can't say I'm consciously aware of that truth myself. But anyway, the impression I'm getting is that this desire is arising from a place of lack, though I could be wrong. Let me ask you another question, though: What if no-one did love you? Would you be able to live with it or would it be a shattering blow?
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  #46  
Old 23-10-2017, 09:01 PM
Molearner Molearner is online now
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Kerubiel ask the rhetoric question of "Who doesn't want to be loved?" I would suggest probably many people if they really understand what authentic love is. I visualize authentic love as being a bestowal of grace. Sort of like the Christian debate of whether salvation is obtained by grace or by works. I tend to think that a lot of people who say they desire love really mean they desire to viewed as 'worthy' of love......a sub-conscious acknowledgement that love should result via works. If instead I view authentic love emanating from an act of grace I realize that all of my faults have been laid bare or made visible or logically assumed and that any subsequent love has been made possible by forgiveness. At my age, I tend to have more certainty of the love that I feel for others rather than the love that I feel from others. Do not misinterpret me.......perceived and felt love is wonderful but is not absolutely required by me. Maybe what I am perceiving as being love from others could possibly be just admiration, agreement etc. Maybe they do not know me deeply enough to be aware of my faults, shortcomings, etc. and have not been moved to the point of forgiveness to me.
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  #47  
Old 24-10-2017, 04:50 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Originally Posted by Molearner
Kerubiel ask the rhetoric question of "Who doesn't want to be loved?" I would suggest probably many people if they really understand what authentic love is. I visualize authentic love as being a bestowal of grace. Sort of like the Christian debate of whether salvation is obtained by grace or by works. I tend to think that a lot of people who say they desire love really mean they desire to viewed as 'worthy' of love......a sub-conscious acknowledgement that love should result via works. If instead I view authentic love emanating from an act of grace I realize that all of my faults have been laid bare or made visible or logically assumed and that any subsequent love has been made possible by forgiveness. At my age, I tend to have more certainty of the love that I feel for others rather than the love that I feel from others. Do not misinterpret me.......perceived and felt love is wonderful but is not absolutely required by me. Maybe what I am perceiving as being love from others could possibly be just admiration, agreement etc. Maybe they do not know me deeply enough to be aware of my faults, shortcomings, etc. and have not been moved to the point of forgiveness to me.
Profound (or is it pro-'find') ruminations, Molearner. IMO, one can only 'feel' what one actually 'feels' - though one's 'consciousness' can empathetically 'enter' into another being's feeling 'state' and experience 'feeling' that, I think, and then receive-feel that as a kind of 'enriching' 'gift'. I can easily imagine (feel?) someone like Jesus as 'forgiving' 'my' faults, as not holding these against and so fully (truly?) loving 'me'. And I think/feel/believe certain others in my life who know me because, among other things, I have 'confessed' my own imperfections to them, who love me similarly.
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  #48  
Old 24-10-2017, 05:07 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Originally Posted by A human Being
What if no-one did love you? Would you be able to live with it or would it be a shattering blow?
In a unitarian (non-dualistic) 'view', this Q is 'oxymoronic' because (IMO at least) Life is Love in action and we are all love 'fishes' sustained by and swimming around in a 'sea' of love.

In a dualistic frame of reference, wherein so-called the 'laws' ;) (effects? of) of attraction, neutrality and/or repulsion operate, you have to love 'more' to be loved 'more' and the only way one could or would not be at all loved is if one did not love (say because one just hated everyone and everything or completely stopped (positively) caring about anyone or anything at all.

Only if one really did not love anyone or anything could one sustain (beyond momentary despair) the 'projection' that one was loved by no-one at all, in which case one couldn't help but be existentially 'shattered', I think.

Jesus's saying: "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure [i.e. remain 'loving'] unto the end, the same shall be saved." comes to mind in the above regards.
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  #49  
Old 24-10-2017, 06:19 PM
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I don't quite understand where you're coming from, Kerubiel.

Of course shared love has got to be one of the sweetest things we know. No doubt about that!

But -are you talking about desire? About that sexual desire which many think is "love"?
Sure, love can be a part of it, and it is beautiful when it is. But it isn't always, by any manner of means, even though it changes our consciousness...gives us a "high"...feeds our ego....makes us feel enchanted....makes us feel mighty satisfied and good....etc etc.

Love really is something else.

Okay -this is why I don't quite get where you're coming from.
On the one hand you extol the virtues of Love, and use all the right words.Maybe even feel it?
Yet on the other hand, you seem impressed by the idea of "making somebody" do what you want them to do; of planting or enforcing a "love" into them, and then presumably basking in all that glory about what you made somebody else do, while bathing in a strange reflected image via that person, of your own willpower!

That most certainly is not what genuine Love does, or wishes for or desires!
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  #50  
Old 24-10-2017, 06:58 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Originally Posted by davidsun
I have to disagree with you here, 7 - in the sense that "All roads ultimately 'lead' home." The 'way' you are advocating (as not being 'wrong') is just one 'way', IMO. What is called 'God', which could just as well be called 'Love', 'Light' etc., etc., etc. is BOTH 'imminent' and 'transcendant'. And one has to begin/start any 'journey' from wherever one is at present. All too many (IMO) try to get 'there' (where you speak of) by 'adopting' the kind of 'perspective' and 'attitude' you promote as being 'authentic' when they are not (yet) at the point in their soul's journey where such perspective and attitude is 'natural' (i.e. truly 'organic'). They are, at best, 'pretenders' in such regard, and as a result don't actually open themselves up to the kinds of experiences which, if and as 'digested', would result in their becoming authentically so. I suggest that any reader who 'agrees' with the quite eloquently-rationalized 'message' that you present 'check' to see if what I say in regards to the authenticity vs. pretense dynamics possibly being in play.

I offer my 'teaching' in the above regard in form of a 'story' (pertaining to the dynamics of desire and loss) I once heard, to wit: " 'God' 'gives' you everything you could possibly love and desire and then one by one takes them away from you until all that you are left with is Love Itself!"

My advice: Though 'men' (males-principle oriented psyches) may take more than one lifetime to 'reach' the point where they become dispassionately 'loving' (there are also those who do that in the course of 'maturing' in any given lifetime, IMO) , watch that you don't fall into the 'trap' of seeking/trying/aiming to 'leap-frog' the process by avoiding 'passion' in the 'name' of only being 'committed' to 'true' love - especially not in a 'holier than though' mode which, IMO, may really 'kill' (i.e. 'stop') the process of becoming Love Itself. Such 'avoidance' a 'trap' many 'women' (female-principle oriented psyches) fall into, IMO, which is why it makes sense to me that one has to incarnate and experience both 'ways' to 'get' to 'wholeness' (which is different than what many think and feel is 'holiness', I think).

My 'sense' is and so I am betting that Kerubiel is closer to being/becoming and so will get there sooner than many of the 'holier' (seeming) folks 'here'. His unabashed 'boldness' in the above regard has opened the doorway to heaven to him, I think. Not that I know everything, so I don't know for sure.

Davidsun, hello there!
First, I appreciate your input and your willingness to engage, as I do Kerubiel's engagement. I think it's very important to be open. And it's also very important to ask for directions when your intention to get there is sincere and yet you are misdirected at every turn (by mainstream society, and by most men you know) with regard to respecting and honouring the humanity of women, and in particular their highest good.

Second ...I understand what you say from your perspective far better than you could know...particularly since you don't know me, hahaha

I have had more prior lifetimes as men than as women. And YES I was cad once but only in the first one, LOL...I learnt that lesson and the true extent of the fallout early one. Long story...extremely painful. I do understand, and yes I have always had a vast energetic component of fire in my makeup, no matter the lifetime. Living a life of integrity and beauty is not easy...you commit to yourself and to your world and to who you are at centre every day. Sometimes it's difficult. You struggle. And I realised -- and IMO we all eventually realise -- that the truth and the beauty is in the union of my heart, my mind, my body, and my soul. Not in just my body. Or even just my heart, if the context is dishonourable or degrading or exploitative either for me or for others.

But you cannot get by without harnessing the strength or else it will consume you. You certainly need fortified elements of earth, water, and metal to balance the fire. Groundedness, strength of heart and spirit, and discipline and reflection. From a place of balance, we find that authentic love, sublime joy, AND bliss and passion all go very well together. Like bread and butter. Action and reflection, similarly. Yin and yang (or, yang and yin).

You don't deny or tamp down your passion...you transmute your heart and your very being such that your passion is authentically loving, rather than angry or cruel or sadistic or addictive or exploitative/self-serving or violent, etc. It's all about balance and equanimity, and allowing your bliss and your passion to flow freely in service to heart and mind, allowing you to both love and honour (and not use or exploit or mindlessly engage with) others.

I have a deep and balanced heart, and I'm more rational and probably more courageous than most men I know...that includes risking life and limb on behalf of others, as well as manifesting courage of heart in being and doing authentic love. Whilst being a mum, sole support. And yes, I "look" very girly and I do have to play that way down. Stereotypes are largely based on cultural context and for many, on appearances and other superficials...as a result, they are easily transcended by those who are consciously walking their paths. Our inherent iniquities are another story altogether, and our current culture exploits our weaknesses in particularly vicious and destructive ways.

A person in balance has both male and female within. Most of my lifetimes as men, I lived in societies with a much greater balance and parity between men and women. We partnered on a foundation of authentic love, which required that I as a large, powerful man be emotionally and spiritually mature and centred, so that I could be disciplined and authentically loving and seek the highest good of ALL woman equally to myself, and especially my partner. So that I had the strength of heart to be genuine and real, and to love and give with all my heart and all my soul and all my might (just as the saying goes ) to the moment, to myself, to my words and deeds, and to those I loved most.

It is doable, living with integrity and honour in all areas of life, without continually cherry picking around sex and touch. It is regularly practised by a heart-centred humanity throughout all the universes, living with sexual restraint, integrity, and purity of heart and being...and yes striving for chastity, until and unless you freely commit to a life partner in authentic love. Because of the destructive fallout I thoughtlessly but very selfishly caused, that was always the goal for me as a man after my first go-round. It was other areas in which I failed, hahaha...but not that one.

IMO, as a man in past lives, a man is far more empowered and masculine and balanced and strong when he freely chooses committed and authentically loving partnerships. That has been my experience based on screwing up and on doing it right, hahaha! When he freely chooses how to honour his being AND that of his partner. When he freely chooses love and the bliss of a sacred, centred sexuality...versus an addictive and/or violent, degraded "porn"/bestial approach certainly. And also versus "casual" self-indulgent degradation of self and others through the normative promiscuity and exploitation of others. All of which our mainstream culture openly promotes as ok and good. It's a very insidious lie, a misdirection of the most caustic sort, IMO, because it tells men it's ok to indulge your weaknesses and exploit your own vulnerabilities and those of others.

It is key to a man's most basic development as a soul, harnessing our passions and using them for good and in service to the good of all. Simply because men must rise to their centre to overcome baseness, addiction, and exploitation of others for sex (whereas the journey for women is different) does not mean it's not still good and true and beautiful. And necessary AND completely doable.

We all need to support one another in harnessing our power and managing our ingrained weaknesses. Not with bro code/mainstream cultural norms -- but by acknowledging the divine and inherent dignity and worth of every person...especially with regard to those society deems less worthy and "therefore" less deserving of dignity. And those things go hand-in-hand, with the outcome very simply depending on the choices we make in each moment, day by day.

Living by means of "the way" (as it's known in the east), in authentic love for all equally to the self, makes you a better man, a fuller and more deeply human version of yourself. It is simply that our heavy-handed, hierarchical, power-over history to date has not traditionally presented an free and equitable context or a culture of parity within which to realise these truths. Nor has our exploitative, utilitarian, amoral modern society presented a healthy alternative context. It's important to realise the misdirection we come to, and here I speak particularly for the misdirection for men on their spiritual paths. The misdirection of women (to engage in easy indulgence of men's demands for sex and touch, perhaps even to manipulate men's weaknesses whilst pimping yourself out) is another discussion in itself, LOL.

I do sometimes hear affirmation from men -- actually, I hear loads of it from most decent men I speak to on this general topic (not about my past lives). Mostly only when we speak in person, though, and they feel they can be honest. In the past, however, most of it has not been offered freely -- though they freely agree, usually. Do you know what I'd really like to hear? LOADS more of it :) !!! Spoke with ownership and reflection and clarity. I'd love to hear more men speaking freely about their realisation of the manipulation and misdirection the current culture offers their hearts and souls, particularly with regard to how they treat the other half of humanity.

About the truth and beauty of integrity, about the need for truth and beauty in their lives more generally. About how they deserve that, and how they are that, at centre, and most importantly, how they can begin to live there day-to-day and manifest that in their lives through their own choices and struggles.

About how the struggle itself to be truth and beauty, to be who they are at centre...is beautiful, and good, and true and worth engaging in with all their hearts, souls, and might.
About their desire to realise authentic love with others and not just for sexual purposes.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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