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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #11  
Old 17-07-2017, 06:08 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
Very interesting r6. I always thought that lack of empathy and emotion originated from the amygdala - of which mine is small and underactive.

I think Michelle's post is so good we underestimate it. R is right to imo. But you Necromancer speak my language. This is what I see from my experience. I think we also underestimate how fragile the brain is and balanced, that even as it appears is affected by what we see, do, or simply experience. Where does objectivity lie. How strong are emotions. Emotion seem very specific. That's how delicate it is, now we're talking about something physical which we know science confirms to. If I had to measure such a thing I experience sadness many times more significant then another. it could be anger, it could be love. I am speaking from the perspective of experience. From experience I can relate what is said, in others I cannot. We all can understand that.

You bring up a very good point and the organ as an example. So do we look at one point or talk about the larger region when both are right. It is not one or the other but both. Both are right. I can't remember the specific process but that process is important to. It is the limbic system where emotion arise and control emotion. It includes numerous other organs we're familiar with. One affects the other, the body talking to itself. This is how you feel, this is how you're suppose to feel. It's kinda like a wow moment once you see it's truth. Stress for instance affects this interconnectivity and communication.

Metaphysics has opened our understanding of the process and shows the impossible complexity and the smallness of the process. Where it operates. I use the example of the body and the effect of a tiny insect bite. We know some insects are toxic and if they puncture the skin and inject a drop of venom how it affects us. The smallest drop has a cascading effect that can disable the entire body and is a bit crazy until it recovers. It affects in such large ways, in magnitude. Well the brain is like that to. Even the tiniest amount that I'd be interested to know if it is measured in parts per billion that make us think there is a large flood of proteins that have such major affect when, yes it happened from one single thing that affect everything. We begin to realize it works as it's designed to.

There have been times I have said why did I do that realizing the unbalance or act, such as telling a lie. I don't see the soul relevant but I do see the body relevant. I think this is a very important subject. This small organ affects the entire system which block certain thoughts emotionally until balance is achieved again. Nice post Michelle and informative. Here I'm wondering is there disagreement?
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  #12  
Old 20-07-2017, 09:01 PM
LiberatedLotus LiberatedLotus is offline
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An issue that has always intrigued me.

In my opinion, this is a highly complex one with many layers to it.

One must understand the human in it's totality before understanding the context of a psychopath.

Many layers to an individual: celestial, anatomical, chemical, biological, ancestral, sexual, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, environmental, cultural, and societal. All of them operate interdepently of one another. All play a role. Must understand this.

Asking a psychopath for remorse is equivalent to asking a diabetic to produce insulin or one whom suffers from mental retardation to explain quantum physics.

It's an absurdity. What we can do is address it differently: both personally & collectively.

We must delve deeply into causes/dynamics that led to this particular outcome rather than just the outcome and then apply some arbitrary expectation we have.

We don't look to a plant whose buds never bloomed, wilted, and shrouded with weeds & ask why it's not as fragrant or as vibrant as another? No, we look to source. The Sun, Moon, Earth, Soil, Light, Darkness, Proper Nurtrion, etc. for the answers. We must also understand there are many roses in the garden and to appreciate the intrinsic beauty & value of all.

Just because a being may be "defective" in a certain way does not negate that beings value to humanity, society, or the universe. Just because a being may not be able to "feel/emote" doesn't mean they can't connect to a higher power or find another means to identify with the universe.

This is never to say said actions or being is acceptable. However, through understanding we can find a way to heal, unify, and evolve.
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  #13  
Old 26-07-2017, 10:08 PM
Brucely Brucely is offline
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They dont have a soul, or at least they dont think of life in that way. Its possibly entitlement issues. I knew someone who later i found out he stole from me and was previously in prison. They are the scourge of the earth. I think it all boils down to a serious chemical imbalance they blame their parents about
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  #14  
Old 27-07-2017, 12:08 AM
r6r6r r6r6r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucely
I think it all boils down to a serious chemical imbalance they blame their parents about

I seem to recall Jeeffery Dalhmer making point of stating that his actions had nothing to do with the way his parents raised him{ behavioural conditioning }. True or not who knows.

Humans have a barbaric past and present. Even tho much of society has become more tolerant there exists and undercurrent of that which we only see superficially--- and hope stays that way --- because the standard of living as has mostly risen, generally speaking i.e. world wide over last 5000 years.

r6
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2017, 07:23 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberatedLotus
An issue that has always intrigued me.

In my opinion, this is a highly complex one with many layers to it.

One must understand the human in it's totality before understanding the context of a psychopath.

Many layers to an individual: celestial, anatomical, chemical, biological, ancestral, sexual, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, environmental, cultural, and societal. All of them operate interdepently of one another. All play a role. Must understand this.

Asking a psychopath for remorse is equivalent to asking a diabetic to produce insulin or one whom suffers from mental retardation to explain quantum physics.

It's an absurdity. What we can do is address it differently: both personally & collectively.

We must delve deeply into causes/dynamics that led to this particular outcome rather than just the outcome and then apply some arbitrary expectation we have.

We don't look to a plant whose buds never bloomed, wilted, and shrouded with weeds & ask why it's not as fragrant or as vibrant as another? No, we look to source. The Sun, Moon, Earth, Soil, Light, Darkness, Proper Nurtrion, etc. for the answers. We must also understand there are many roses in the garden and to appreciate the intrinsic beauty & value of all.

Just because a being may be "defective" in a certain way does not negate that beings value to humanity, society, or the universe. Just because a being may not be able to "feel/emote" doesn't mean they can't connect to a higher power or find another means to identify with the universe.

This is never to say said actions or being is acceptable. However, through understanding we can find a way to heal, unify, and evolve.

Very good post...agreed on all points. There is an interplay of these levels, and there is both an individual and a collective responsibility we have toward one another.

For those who are (for whatever reason) unable to function and express in ways that are sustainable for others, individually and collectively...it falls on the rest of us, on the rest of the collective, to learn how to manage and contain the harm and the destruction whilst ideally allowing that person their realm of human expression in a time and place where they can do no harm.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

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  #16  
Old 02-08-2017, 07:34 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6r6r
I seem to recall Jeeffery Dalhmer making point of stating that his actions had nothing to do with the way his parents raised him{ behavioural conditioning }. True or not who knows.

Humans have a barbaric past and present. Even tho much of society has become more tolerant there exists and undercurrent of that which we only see superficially--- and hope stays that way --- because the standard of living as has mostly risen, generally speaking i.e. world wide over last 5000 years.

r6

Agreed - and a very interesting contribution earlier on at least a part of the biological apparatus of the brain needed for normal or usual expressions of empathy.

I think very often...far more often than many in the West realize...there are past-life or other-life seeds to the behavior of a person in this current lifetime. At least part of the time, parents and upbringing may have little or nothing to do with the egregious behaviours of murder, rape, torture, or other crimes, abuses, and perversions against humanity. These are all highly correlated with violent psychopathy, for the obvious reasons such as lack of empathy and poor impulse control and anger management.

To say violent psychopathy in particular has nothing to do with spirit is sometimes wholly correct and sometimes I think not at all correct. As Lotus said, it is all highly individual. Sometimes, it is the unfortunate accident of genetics and environment...as of course not all psychopaths are violent. But sometimes it may be a more directly related karmic outcome which the individual must work through...a severe burden indeed.

For those who struggle with psychopathy and particularly with violent, predatory psychopathy, they deserve our informed compassion alongside firm societal boundaries that allow them to grow without endangering others, and which guide them in the healthiest possible ways, employing containment from others wherever necessary.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2017, 07:56 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle11
In my opinion the problem lies in human's tendency to identify the soul with the quality of the human. It simply is not the truth. Our soul can take on a certain personality, possibly with a brain that is defective or not functioning normally or from a perspective of love, to learn a lesson but the soul itself is not damaged or evil or broken. The challenge for the soul is to see past it's human failings and pain to learn how to express its love through the confused blind human form. It's all just smoke and mirrors created to cause us to think badly about ourselves so we can find our way back to our true loving state as a human and it is not easy. Where psychopaths come in is that they give the rest of us an opportunity to experience abuse and pain we would not otherwise with those souls who have worked through the human condition to find their love in human form. Again, they never lost it as a soul, just that the human form may not be able to express it out of fear.

They say the best way to know who we really are is by experiencing who we are not. It gives our soul a context to feel the true breath of our profound state of love as souls. But if all we know is love having been born into it we can't truly know what that love feels like unless we have felt totally void of love. The human experience is temporary and psychopaths, criminals and the like give other humans a chance to work with painful experiences. A doctor can't learn to be a great doctor without sick people. A detective can learn to be a good detective without crimes. People can't learn to triumph over pain without someone or something inflicting that pain upon them. and we can't truly know our love, what our love feels like, without feeling its painful opposite. So it is possible that psychopaths are new to the human experience (but that doesn't mean their souls are unpure) or it could mean that they are actually pretty advanced and allowing their human selves to be a tool for others to experience an intensely difficult life. Quite brave of both souls actually if you think about it. At least that is my opinion. who knows if it is right but it's what makes sense to me. But the point being, if we identify our soul with our human self we are bound to have a low self image. All humans are flawed to some degree and who is to say what truly constitutes a good human. It's a moving target based on personal views. So the question then becomes not what is wrong with the soul but what is the purpose of a psychopath in the play of life.

A well thought out response and thank you for sharing.
I would add just a bit to it, if I might

IMO, I think the perfecting or becoming of the individual soul and the purpose of the psychopath in the play of life are intertwined at every level, and that they cannot ever be taken apart one from the other.

So, given that understanding that the individual and all others...and the entire play of life are all one in interbeing...

Then I don't think the lesson of suffering at the hands of the psychopath is the lesson per se, nor that we need to continue to learn this lesson ad nauseum from every possible manner of abuser or predator or aggressor in existence (as so many of us have already, worldwide...and in many lifetimes).

Meaning....I think the lessons learnt are simply always the outcome of where we are and what we have brought forward to that moment. Based on choices taken (hopefully ever more conscious, centred, and loving choices), we then create the next now moment, and the next and the next. Which we refer to as the future.

That is, we decide what our choices will be and thus we decide what our lessons learnt will be. Not just beforehand, but in every moment during our lifetime. The moment we decide to choose to stop engaging in or enabling situations, outcomes, and persons that/who are misaligned with love and centre and unity, that's the moment we begin to script our own lessons. And to detach from all those imposed lessons until such time as we can fully remove ourselves.

And that's the moment we begin to realise that wherever possible, we can choose not to underwrite or to keep receiving lessons of cruelty, abuse or even simple needless unkindness. We can see them simply as imposed challenges, of which at the earliest opportunity we will no longer partake -- as they no longer resonate with the love and with our alignment with who we are at centre. At least 50% of any lesson (if not 100% of some lessons) is simply learning how to love the self equally to all others, meaning to detach and remove oneself from many situations until and unless the entire situation can be transformed or brought to a better place for ALL -- meaning for you too ;)

Hopefully, there are a vast number of lessons we can immediately unsubscribe from, and an equally vast number of new lessons we can immediately begin to learn from...lessons we now are choosing for ourselves. Lessons where we clearly and consciously choose the lesson so that we can experience balance, joy, equanimity, and authentic love in our being and doing.

It's very simply voting with your feet (and every other aspect of your being) about the kinds of lessons you will receive, right this very instant and going forward, whenever YOU have any say in it.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #18  
Old 04-08-2017, 06:10 PM
Amilius777 Amilius777 is offline
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This is interesting subject. All I can say is from experience.

I noticed that when I say something hurtful or angry about another person or if I am about to, the goosebumps rise inside of me. I know that is my bigger self saying "Stop. That's mean and negative". I think a lot of people have this. It's some sort of homing device that tries to keep us empathic and good. It's genetic but connected to our Soul which is naturally compassionate and good.

The only time I have refused to listen to that side of my brain is when it's someone I really can't stand and I have made it up in my mind that there is no remorse or regret in having these awful thoughts about x y and z. I think most psychopaths and serial killers and sick people were wounded just like everyone else at a young age but they chose to take their experience in differently than others.

Even on a very unconscious level, choices are made by the soul on a soular level.

Two boys in the same room. Both are molested. One grows up to champion healthy sexual living, sexual expression, loving one self and how to enjoy life and learn from the pain. The other grows up to continue the cycle of abuse and molest children to transmit his pain because it's too hard to deal with. He'd rather project it and have nothing to do with it. His shadow-self has become separated from his overall psyche and self.

The latter is a sign of someone who from an early age has chosen what can only be described as negative or evil.

Psychopaths may have a genetic disposition but a lot of people have genetic inheritances but never give into them. They are only there if the person chooses to activate them. It doesn't define you. There are plenty of people who have an alcoholic gene but they refuse to drink or open that door. There is always SOMETHING in life we need to sacrifice on a carnal level to reject obsessive sensuality. It's being a balanced healthy and happy person.

But this goes to show that even some of the weirdest psychological defects affects the genetics and chemical make up of our species.

People will jump on this because they can't just read this next part without getting triggered, here it goes;
Adam and Eve. Not sayinf there were two people in a garden. Just stop right there and just listen to what I am saying. Our most ancient ancestors (Adam/Eve) were more spiritual than physical. Over time, spirits became more physically interested and the human body was supposedly evolved from another primate as a vehicle. Originally the body was just that and a tool to experience this realm. But due to our Ancestors becoming more interested in the physical consciousness, over time lost sight of the Spiritual. And as they had descendants more and more souls coming into the Homosapien experience would receive not only on a mental but also on a physical level a "separation from Spirit".

Our bodies evolved further from Spirit. This is why the original sin spoken by Catholic mystics has truth to it. But it should be called "Universal Wound". All of us on some level suffer from wounds by parents or society when we are children which all come from the original wound of our Ancestors.
This is why genetics, DNA, and the physical realm is not some illusionary hoopla. From a higher spiritual level, yes the physical realm is maya. It was intended to be a stage to play out roles and have fun and bring spirit into that world. But from our current perspective it is as real as losing a loved one.

If you want to really make a clear distinction whetehr someone is good or evil all you have to look to is this:

All people on some level or another are in Pain. Good people want to feel other people's pain because they have their own pain thus they are compassionate, kind, and empathic. Evil people would rather you feel their pain and only their pain because only there's matters thus they are self-centered, cruel, and malevolent.
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  #19  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:22 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amilius777
This is interesting subject. All I can say is from experience.

I noticed that when I say something hurtful or angry about another person or if I am about to, the goosebumps rise inside of me. I know that is my bigger self saying "Stop. That's mean and negative". I think a lot of people have this. It's some sort of homing device that tries to keep us empathic and good. It's genetic but connected to our Soul which is naturally compassionate and good.

The only time I have refused to listen to that side of my brain is when it's someone I really can't stand and I have made it up in my mind that there is no remorse or regret in having these awful thoughts about x y and z. I think most psychopaths and serial killers and sick people were wounded just like everyone else at a young age but they chose to take their experience in differently than others.

Even on a very unconscious level, choices are made by the soul on a soular level.

Two boys in the same room. Both are molested. One grows up to champion healthy sexual living, sexual expression, loving one self and how to enjoy life and learn from the pain. The other grows up to continue the cycle of abuse and molest children to transmit his pain because it's too hard to deal with. He'd rather project it and have nothing to do with it. His shadow-self has become separated from his overall psyche and self.

The latter is a sign of someone who from an early age has chosen what can only be described as negative or evil.

Psychopaths may have a genetic disposition but a lot of people have genetic inheritances but never give into them. They are only there if the person chooses to activate them. It doesn't define you. There are plenty of people who have an alcoholic gene but they refuse to drink or open that door. There is always SOMETHING in life we need to sacrifice on a carnal level to reject obsessive sensuality. It's being a balanced healthy and happy person.

But this goes to show that even some of the weirdest psychological defects affects the genetics and chemical make up of our species.

People will jump on this because they can't just read this next part without getting triggered, here it goes;
Adam and Eve. Not sayinf there were two people in a garden. Just stop right there and just listen to what I am saying. Our most ancient ancestors (Adam/Eve) were more spiritual than physical. Over time, spirits became more physically interested and the human body was supposedly evolved from another primate as a vehicle. Originally the body was just that and a tool to experience this realm. But due to our Ancestors becoming more interested in the physical consciousness, over time lost sight of the Spiritual. And as they had descendants more and more souls coming into the Homosapien experience would receive not only on a mental but also on a physical level a "separation from Spirit".

Our bodies evolved further from Spirit. This is why the original sin spoken by Catholic mystics has truth to it. But it should be called "Universal Wound". All of us on some level suffer from wounds by parents or society when we are children which all come from the original wound of our Ancestors.
This is why genetics, DNA, and the physical realm is not some illusionary hoopla. From a higher spiritual level, yes the physical realm is maya. It was intended to be a stage to play out roles and have fun and bring spirit into that world. But from our current perspective it is as real as losing a loved one.

If you want to really make a clear distinction whetehr someone is good or evil all you have to look to is this:

All people on some level or another are in Pain. Good people want to feel other people's pain because they have their own pain thus they are compassionate, kind, and empathic. Evil people would rather you feel their pain and only their pain because only there's matters thus they are self-centered, cruel, and malevolent.

Amilius, this is a very thoughtful post, as always.
You make a lot of very insightful points.
The only thing I would stress is that the body is as holy as any other aspect of thus, though finite. Its temporal nature does not make it less sacred...and our temporal experience in the body brings us deep insights we cannot receive any other way, as I understand.

You are right in that ultimately it is all down to our choices. And choosing wisely in even the darkest or weakest moments is all down to our strength of heart, our courage, our fortitude, and our moral fibre. It's all down to the struggle and our strength of will in those moments.

The thing I would add is that in some lifetimes, we bring gifts and experiences into that lifetime which are not (yet) present in others. Also we accrue gifts and experiences in a particular lifetime versus others. So in some lifetimes, we have reached the place on our journey where we are strong enough to struggle. And to overcome even, most times. In other lifetimes, we have not remembered who we are, and perhaps we also come into that life burdened deeply in some ways. Perhaps we are brutalised in that lifetime and cannot recover because we are not yet strong.

I see the psychopath who is not violent as the one who carries a great burden but struggles with it...to some degree perhaps even successfully. Even though in some ways he or she is likely or even guaranteed to lose in others, even if they struggle valiantly...such as the attainment of empathy. And I see particularly the violent psychopath as one who lacks the strength of will or character to struggle...they cannot successfully struggle to overcome their violent impulses, and so they become a slave to their own predation. Unable to stop their behaviour.

It's also true the violent psychopaths in particular meet your definition of a person who embodies and perpetrates evil rather than good. We cannot expect more from a person than they are capable of doing or being -- such as successful rehabilitation, which may not be possible for them (in this lifetime). And that's why I agree that there are some in society who should be kept apart from others, ideally in a place where they are free to live without contacting or harming others.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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