No reason to meditate

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

What exactly are the "there's nothing to do" schools of thought that you are referring to and why do they abandon or neglect to mention the years of preparatory work? And what exactly are the preparatory work that they omit to participate in? Sorry, I do not quite understand and hope you don't mind explaining. :)

As Eelco says, certain neo-advaitist teachers dismiss the need for meditation. Their argument is that those who meditate are doing a particular practice to attain a particular goal, and that goal is some future realisation.

They say that realisation happens now, in this moment, and that realisation is attained through letting go of all ideas of doing because there is no-one doing anything. So if we do any kind of meditation then we are trapped in the idea of having to do something to attain something. Perhaps this sounds good, but from my perspective these teachers are defining meditation in a very limited way so that they can then dismiss it.

Meditation is an opportunity to sit and BE, without external distractions. Yes, there are internal distractions (mental chatter, emotional states, physical discomfort), but these fall away as we rest in stillness.

There are also the obvious benefits of meditation, on all levels. Would these teachers who dismiss meditation also dismiss the benefits of physical exercise? On the one hand, the body is a temporary illusion so it doesn't matter how fit and healthy it is. On the other hand, our experience on Earth is made much easier if our physical body is in good health. So it makes sense to do some type of physical exercise even if we know that the body is ultimately an illusion. In the same way, it makes sense to do some kind of meditation practice to enhance our experience in this lifetime.

Some of these neo-advaitist teachers have had years of spiritual disciplines before realising whatever they realise. If they then discount the need for any spiritual practices to attain realisation then they are denying all the years of preparatory work which they themselves have done.

Other neo-advaitist teachers may not have done any particular practices, and their realisation just happens one day. But if reincarnation is a fact then who knows what they have done in previous lifetimes to prepare themselves?

But many of these teachers also deny the idea of reincarnation, because they say that there is no-one present to reincarnate. Even if they have realised that the personal ego does not exist and therefore does nothing, consciousness is still present, and the spiritual journey is all about the evolution of consciousness.

While neo-advaitist teachers may teach from their own realisation, I sometimes find that these teachers lack the understanding to put their realisations into a wider context. Therefore what they teach is only a small part of the picture.

Peace.

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Interesting quote! I think arrogance can be perceived as one aspect of ego and self deprecating humbleness could be the other side of the same coin. One leads to a superiority complex the other illustrates a certain identification with inferiority; both of which derives from ego. However, I think humility can simply be described as the lack of arrogance without diving into inferiority thus creating a rather conscious equanimity.

Im sure that quote could be taken by many people and they would give different meanings to it, i feel someone needs to be at a certain level before that even applies to them in a positive empowering way..... However I never knew what this ego thing was till i heard about it when i started to get into spirituality, before that i just thought people acted the way they did because of there life and personality and that was it, the word ego was not in my vocabulary.

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by iamthat

As Eelco says, certain neo-advaitist teachers dismiss the need for meditation. Their argument is that those who meditate are doing a particular practice to attain a particular goal, and that goal is some future realisation.

They say that realisation happens now, in this moment, and that realisation is attained through letting go of all ideas of doing because there is no-one doing anything. So if we do any kind of meditation then we are trapped in the idea of having to do something to attain something. Perhaps this sounds good, but from my perspective these teachers are defining meditation in a very limited way so that they can then dismiss it.

Meditation is an opportunity to sit and BE, without external distractions. Yes, there are internal distractions (mental chatter, emotional states, physical discomfort), but these fall away as we rest in stillness.

There are also the obvious benefits of meditation, on all levels. Would these teachers who dismiss meditation also dismiss the benefits of physical exercise? On the one hand, the body is a temporary illusion so it doesn't matter how fit and healthy it is. On the other hand, our experience on Earth is made much easier if our physical body is in good health. So it makes sense to do some type of physical exercise even if we know that the body is ultimately an illusion. In the same way, it makes sense to do some kind of meditation practice to enhance our experience in this lifetime.

Some of these neo-advaitist teachers have had years of spiritual disciplines before realising whatever they realise. If they then discount the need for any spiritual practices to attain realisation then they are denying all the years of preparatory work which they themselves have done.

Other neo-advaitist teachers may not have done any particular practices, and their realisation just happens one day. But if reincarnation is a fact then who knows what they have done in previous lifetimes to prepare themselves?

But many of these teachers also deny the idea of reincarnation, because they say that there is no-one present to reincarnate. Even if they have realised that the personal ego does not exist and therefore does nothing, consciousness is still present, and the spiritual journey is all about the evolution of consciousness.

While neo-advaitist teachers may teach from their own realisation, I sometimes find that these teachers lack the understanding to put their realisations into a wider context. Therefore what they teach is only a small part of the picture.

Peace.

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative explanation! It makes better sense now. Another question I have: Is it possible for neo-advaitist type teachers to incorporate what they teach in conjunction with more traditional practice/preparatory work? Does it have to be one or the other? For instance, someone who may understand the perspective of the neo-advaitist teachers could also simultaneously continue to practice what they practice right? It could be a expansive multidimensional experience and awareness?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative explanation! It makes better sense now. Another question I have: Is it possible for neo-advaitist type teachers to incorporate what they teach in conjunction with more traditional practice/preparatory work? Does it have to be one or the other? For instance, someone who may understand the perspective of the neo-advaitist teachers could also simultaneously continue to practice what they practice right? It could be a expansive multidimensional experience and awareness?

Good question, and I only have time for a very brief response right now. I am writing as someone whose spiritual philosophy is basically advaitist but who firmly believes in the traditional practices of meditation as part of the journey

There are many neo-advaitist teachers around. They obviously have a lot in common but they have come to their realisations in different ways, which may affect how and what they teach. I cannot point to any particular teacher and say that they teach both advaita and more traditional methods. To be honest, after you have read a few of them, they all seem to blur into a general mass. They say that there is nothing to do and no-one to do it, but still the books keep on coming, even though presumably there is no-one to write them and no-one to read them!!

And yet, every once in a while you come across a sentence which completely resonates and shifts your perspective.

I always think you cannot go wrong with Ramana Maharshi, a pure advaitist, but who recognised the need for self-enquiry to go beyond the I to knowledge of the Self. And after his realisation at the age of sixteen, he spent much of the next twenty-five years immersed in meditation.

Perhaps someone else on this forum can give a fuller response.

Peace

[Gem]

In the kind of practice the op outlined the person is just feeling what is there: if it is tense, relaxed, or whatever it feels like to them.

I'm just saying if you pay attention and feel throughout the body as described in the OP you will know what it feels like (as opposed to being unconscious of it).

Let's imagine, for example, that someone felt through the body as per the OP and noticed they had some tension in the shoulders/neck area. It is a common, everyday, physical way of holding stress. After said imaginary person became aware of that tension, why would they purposely hold it there? Of course, as a person notices tensions they automatically relax those tensions.

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by Gem

There is a reason though it is unlike any usual reason.

Just to relax - as one might feel tensions in the body.

It's a good exercise to feel the body from the feet, moving slowly upward, relaxing each part as you go. Repeating this over and over is by itself a wonderful meditation. It keeps the mind in the moment with attention within the reality of the body as it actually feels.

It connects to the mind as the tensions which are noticed in the body correlate with tensions of the mind. As mental stress shows up as tension in the body, as the body relaxes, so too does the mind.

The art is this watching, noticing. Noticing what sort of tensions are being held in the body, and by becoming conscious of these, ceasing to hold that tension.

One can continue, and repeat feeling from toes to head, and see if any part resumes holding tension. Without judgment, one can stay with a tense spot for a little while and see if it releases. If it does, then continue as you were. If it doesn't, then be with the tension for a little while, maybe a minute or less, feeling it more thoroughly, then continue the exercise as you were.

In this way, the meditator stops doing the activity which is tensing. In awareness of the body, previously unconscious holding of tension is made known and resolved. By noticing where tensions lie, they are released into no-effort. To lose tensions, gaining none, as these come and go.

So from the toes to the crown, moving quite slowly, feeling each part carefully, relaxing as you go - arriving at the crown, and starting again.

I apologize for wandering off the topic of your OP, Gem. What you described is an excellent meditative practice to bring consciousness and presence into the body that not only benefits to calm the mind, but also alleviates stress and tension of the physical form. My former dance teacher, who was also a self proclaimed Shaman always says, "we are so often chased out of our bodies!"

Perhaps she means that those of us who are cerebral and intellectually inclined tends to rest our consciousness within mental activity and often neglect to be present with and fully inhabit our bodies. And for some who have experience psychic and physical traumas often times unconsciously disown and disconnect from our bodies. I know that this was certainly the case with me.

Consciously going through each part of the body to brings awareness to the hidden tensions and issues that we may often neglect or forget is a wonderful healing process. In addition, meditative physical exercises such as dance, yoga, martial arts, etc. can help foster a holistic wellness that expands the consciousness. :)

[Shivani Devi]

What is being described in the opening post, can be basically called "Yoga Nidra" which is a form of meditation within itself (mindful relaxation), although meditation can take many forms, however 'mindfulness' is basically common to all.

Sometimes, the actual process of assigning a certain time to actually sit in lotus posture and free the mind from thoughts, can be counter-productive and disconcerting if effort must be made to attain a state, which is essentially effort-less.

The focus needs to be brought towards a singular aspect, and awareness trained towards 'single-pointedness' and thus, one can meditate gazing at a candle flame, lost in reverie whilst gazing at the ocean, a beautiful sunrise, the stars in the night sky (Mars was particularly brilliant last night for some strange reason), progressive muscle relaxation (as stated), chanting/focusing on a specific mantra, mindful eating/drinking...and for those who make mindfulness part of their everyday lives, actually sitting down to gaze at one's navel, isn't really necessary.

Originally Posted by sky123

10 Reasons You Should Never Start Meditating

1. You won’t be able to worry obsessively.
Meditation opens the door to inner peace. You’ve got a reservoir of untapped ease and relaxation waiting to be discovered. So if you’re the kind of person who likes to worry and fret over every last thing, don’t start meditating. You’ll be disappointed.

2. It will kill your commitment to stress.
Ready to chill out and master the art of doing nothing? Then meditation is definitely for you.
................


3. It will take away your excuses to be unhappy.
Do you want to be happy? If you do, you should meditate. If you like being in a good mood and seeing the light in everything, then definitely sit on the cushion and get peaceful. Meditation is a serious mood enhancer and it brightens everything.

But if you don’t want to give up your rationale and justifications for being unhappy, you should abandon your meditation aspirations right away.

Interesting, this.

No need to quote your entire post to say that the identities of most people do seem invested in your reasons NOT to meditate. What would define a person better than their problems, their worries, their (sometimes petty) angers, foibles, their addiction to spending and debt, slavery to the system...

Without careful preparation, meditation would gradually awaken them to being nothing, as in having no "self" without all their conditioned baggage. A few wise among them would spot the potential for taking control of their lives. Others might fall into a mental limbo.

There's a guy at the studio like this, always stressed, panicking at times, terrified he'll make mistakes or do a bad production. You say to him "Come on! Relax!" and he'll say, "I can't, I'm busy."

Perhaps it's an idea (can't recall it being mentioned here) for someone to ask why they want to meditate. Claiming it's for "inner peace" is a big ask. It would take an amount of v.i.t.r.i.o.l for someone at the beginning to achieve that, a long stage-by-stage process.

But if it's enough to learn to relax, to allow the mind to wander across the day and ruminate, let the worries and stresses come forth where they can seen third-person-like, the person might just reflect on what's good and bad about their position in it/life.

...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

I apologize for wandering off the topic of your OP, Gem. What you described is an excellent meditative practice to bring consciousness and presence into the body that not only benefits to calm the mind, but also alleviates stress and tension of the physical form.

There is a synergy when mental stress shows as body tension, so the deliberate observation and relaxing of the body is in effect releasing tension in the mind/body.

My former dance teacher, who was also a self proclaimed Shaman always says, "we are so often chased out of our bodies!"

Perhaps she means that those of us who are cerebral and intellectually inclined tends to rest our consciousness within mental activity and often neglect to be present with and fully inhabit our bodies. And for some who have experience psychic and physical traumas often times unconsciously disown and disconnect from our bodies. I know that this was certainly the case with me.

It's also synergistic in the sense that when we close off psychologically it corrosponds with dull, hard-to-feel or unaware parts on the body.

Consciously going through each part of the body to brings awareness to the hidden tensions and issues that we may often neglect or forget is a wonderful healing process.

Yes.

In addition, meditative physical exercises such as dance, yoga, martial arts, etc. can help foster a holistic wellness that expands the consciousness. :)

Yes, I think exercise types that involve a mind/body connection have good body awareness benefits. Being conscious of body brings it alive.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Interesting, this.

No need to quote your entire post to say that the identities of most people do seem invested in your reasons NOT to meditate. What would define a person better than their problems, their worries, their (sometimes petty) angers, foibles, their addiction to spending and debt, slavery to the system...

In a sense the notion of NOT is suitable. The exercise in the OP leads to noticing one might be holding somewhere in the body and NOT holding that tension.

This implies a subtlety to the volition where one intends to examine the body, but has no intention to do anything about it. If we can regard the volition as 'cause', there something that causes tensions in the body which is generated in the mind, and the cause of that generation is volition - albeit not a conscious one. When noticing a tense spot, one will find they intentionally have to hold that tension to keep it going, it's hard and takes effort. The subtlety is, although there is pre-intent to relax as a condition of the exercise, there is a release of the volition which was unconsciously generating that tension. It's 'willingness' rather than 'willfulness'.

Without careful preparation, meditation would gradually awaken them to being nothing, as in having no "self" without all their conditioned baggage. A few wise among them would spot the potential for taking control of their lives. Others might fall into a mental limbo.

There's a guy at the studio like this, always stressed, panicking at times, terrified he'll make mistakes or do a bad production. You say to him "Come on! Relax!" and he'll say, "I can't, I'm busy."

Perhaps it's an idea (can't recall it being mentioned here) for someone to ask why they want to meditate. Claiming it's for "inner peace" is a big ask. It would take an amount of v.i.t.r.i.o.l for someone at the beginning to achieve that, a long stage-by-stage process.

But if it's enough to learn to relax, to allow the mind to wander across the day and ruminate, let the worries and stresses come forth where they can seen third-person-like, the person might just reflect on what's good and bad about their position in it/life.

...

I would frame this as a relaxation technique but also something deliberate. Consistency of practice would make a person more perceptively sensitive to the body, as you get better at what you practice, and in the non-dual person this is sensitivity of mind/body.