Predatory Animals and Love

[Arcturus]

i read about the clive bakster experiments in "the secret life of plants" best seller. i actually think they got it wrong. steiner claimed that horses who add up are not really doing it but that a trainer being in close proximity with a horse enables part of his etheric body to live and act in the horse. same with the plants, when they are cared for by humans then they pick up some of the humans etheric life force that pours into it. and so even if they're separated by distnce, part of the carer/human is still with the plant so changes in the humans respiration will show in the plant, if it's being polygraphed. that's not to say that plants don't have emotions and lives though, but they are less sensitive than animals.

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by Bluegreen

Who is to say that plants are the least sensitive? It could be that the inability to express 'feelings' hides how sensitive they are. Just a thought.

I have read that there are people who do not eat at all.

i've heard of breatharians, maybe it's the future.

it was krishnamurti who mentioned about plants being less sensitive than animals; it seems about right to me. certainly the central nervous system of animals seems much more advanced. then rocks are apparently less sensitive again, than plants, but still sentient. could all be wrong tho.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Joseph123

I know and understand that the true nature of human beings is love. I would have always made a similar statement about animals, given their propensity for love that is evident and because I have heard that love is their true condition, as well. Though, my conception has been troubled as I have begun to consider predatory animals. Any being killing another is certainly about the least loving act possible.

I would very much appreciate it if someone would weigh in on the matter. P.S. I would prefer if you not comment here if you are a person that does not believe that animals have souls.


Thanks

I see you only want people who conform to your particular belief, but it's an open forum so people who don't conform will probably contribute anyway.

Love is just something people throw around like a spiritual football... and a lion kills deer to live... but we all kill. Our lights and our cars and our golf courses farms cities and all the **** we buy then dump, the chemicals we spray and so on and so on and on and on... it all destroys the environment and kills deer lions and everything as habitat is destroyed and polluted.

All this love and souls stuff is just a veneer that protects us from facing the truth, that we are killers far and beyond any predatory species.

Joseph

Thinking meat is "wrong" is strickly a personal choice. Ecologically speaking, each animal is there to further its own genetic line, while struggling to survive in its environent, which is doing the same thing. It is a constant back and fourth relationship.

The proper human diet consists of a plethora of food, including meat, veggies fruits, tubors, nuts and fungi. We are omnivores whos "natural" diet is dependent on your environment. Generally speaking, peoples who live in tropical climate eat more fruits then meat, because there are more fruits available, and people who live further north eat more meat, because there is more meat then plants available. There is no real "proper" diet for us, other then eating a variety of foods, which we do not do at all. These days, even vegans only eat maybe a dozen plants, where as hunter gatherers (most of our history) we would eat HUNDREDS of species of plants and many kinds of meat.

Now, once we get to the spiritual aspect of things it can get a bit misconstrued. Spiritual reasons are no more then PERSONAL OPINION. East indians dont eat cattle because cows are sacred, yet many will still eat chicken and fish, or at least milk and cheese.

Now heres the real kicker. There has been no evidence to suggest animals "love" like humans. Yes, there is LOTS of evidence that animals feel loss (ever see a crow hover over its partners body for days?), or a dogs sadness and lonelyness when its owner is not around. They also would know pain, because pain is an adaptatation for survival. Animals seem to understand companionship to a point as well, but that does not mean they love unfortunately.

We have a bad, bad habit of anthropimorphizing animal and the natural world. We put our faces on everything because many cannot begin to understand the natural world (or choose not to). Too many times ive had a vegetarian/vegan state something a long the lines of "plants are sentient, they have no soul so its ok to eat them and not animals". There are way too many things wrong with this thought process that ill only name a few:

Plants are alive and do EVERYTHING animals do in their own way. They are alive and it is unfair to think of them as other wise. If more people understood botany then I think we may not so hap hazardly destroy forests and natural ecosystems. Trees communicate, reproduce sexually, move, adapt evolve (and co evolve with other species of plant and animals) they react to their surroundings. Sure, we cant see them communicating, or defending themselves but that does not mean they arent alive, or should be on the same level as animals. Life is life, be that plant, squirrel or elephant, to the "lowly" soil mite to the majestic sequoia. If you believe in souls, or that animals have souls, then plants should be thought of having souls as well. They are just as alive as us, even though "they dont have brains" (which is an ignorant thought, they arent animals and shouldnt be wholey be treated as such, other then the fact that life is life).

Back in our hunter gatherer days, hunting, while essential for our evolution, was an extremely sacred act. Hunting was done with great remorse and respect for the animal that died. They did not waste anything, they didnt take more then was needed, and many of those peoples actually ADVANCED ecosystems by encouraging certain animals and plants (north american natives are thought to have spread squirrels and turkeys so that nut trees like white oak, pecan hickory and others would be planted without work. They let the turkeys and squirrels plant the nuts, and also hunted the squirrles and turkeys understanding that they needed them in order to perpetuate the forest.

Animals act on instinct, so do plants and despite out ability to choose, those choices are still dictated by instinct as well. Predator species in their natural environment do not take more then i needed and are in a general "ebb and flow" battle with other species in the environment. Even an invasive species will eventually come into equilibrium with its new environment, or get wiped out (apple trees, dispite out best efforts are afflicted with dozens of fungal diseases and viruses. If they were just left alone, many species of not all of our agricultural species will be wiped out, or revert to a more "wild" type.)

Predator and prey relationships are what keep ecosystems in check. Humans are indeed a top predator in 90% of the ecosystems we inhabit and ecologically speaking, an invasive species that has no more real natural predators.

Sorry if this is a bit of a tangent, but the situation is way more complex then most people understand. It is anything but simple in regards to spiritual reasoning.

[running]

Originally Posted by Gem

I see you only want people who conform to your particular belief, but it's an open forum so people who don't conform will probably contribute anyway.

Love is just something people throw around like a spiritual football... and a lion kills deer to live... but we all kill. Our lights and our cars and our golf courses farms cities and all the **** we buy then dump, the chemicals we spray and so on and so on and on and on... it all destroys the environment and kills deer lions and everything as habitat is destroyed and polluted.

All this love and souls stuff is just a veneer that protects us from facing the truth, that we are killers far and beyond any predatory species.

That's the heart of it. I completely agree!

Originally Posted by Joseph123

Any being killing another is certainly about the least loving act possible.

Originally Posted by Gem

... but we all kill. Our lights and our cars and our golf courses farms cities and all the **** we buy then dump, the chemicals we spray and so on and so on and on and on... it all destroys the environment and kills deer lions and everything as habitat is destroyed and polluted.

I agree. The human species is really not that loving as far as respect for life is concerned.
In the animal kingdom, predators kill differently and it's about an immediate need for food.
Humans kill a lot of the time without regard to suffering and it's not about need. And their methods are more insidious. They often kill 'slowly' as in the example mentioned of chemical use. Sometimes they know what they're doing, but don't care. Sometimes they don't know what they're doing...and don't care.

Originally Posted by dreamt

I agree. The human species is really not that loving as far as respect for life is concerned.
In the animal kingdom, predators kill differently and it's about an immediate need for food.
Humans kill a lot of the time without regard to suffering and it's not about need. And their methods are more insidious. They often kill 'slowly' as in the example mentioned of chemical use. Sometimes they know what they're doing, but don't care. Sometimes they don't know what they're doing...and don't care.

Then why not uplift a new species that is much more capable of adhering to the faith than what humans are? Might I suggest making them eusocial as well, so they will live in harmony like ants live in harmony in their colonies. Birds like crows and ravens would be an ideal base template. As for humanity, we should attain the technology to leave Earth, then never settle any planet ever again unless said planets are just rocks, then only to mine them, and move on, like nomadic drifters.

To withstand the rigours of space, such humans would have to have devices implanted in them. I put forward that perhaps by replacing the flesh of man with machine parts, then we would be less distracted by our flesh, and thereby drift closer to spirit.

We should have arisen on a much more hostile planet like the fictional Dune. We would at least be able to live in our communities with one another better, if only because we would be forced to. If only I could implant a chip in people's brains that made everyone share their minds so that we'd understand each other. It's much the same ethic, but I tend toward thinking of solutions that involve transhumanism etc.

Back on topic, a cheetah kills a gazelle on the hunt. She must, because otherwise her cubs will starve. It is unknowable what the cheetah feels about the gazelle's welfare, other than the thrill of the hunt and perhaps a primal respect of worthy prey. But she also remembers her cubs waiting for her, and that extra dash drives her to trip the gazelle and make the kill. Just as it is in the nature of the cheetah to hunt down prey with her superior speed, and so it is that building, exploring, fighting and killing and all the promise and pitfalls, pollution etc it entails is human nature. All matters of spirit aside, if you look at the natural world, we are but what the apotheosis of what makes a chimpanzee a chimpanzee. Where it is unfortunate is that human beings don't live long enough to truly appreciate the damage they do. Our capacity was only ever meant to have an individual live for fifty years maximum. This thinking must be adjusted, whether by philosophy or by use of technological means.

[sandalwood]

an animal has never killed out of hatred. only out of a need to eat. if you notice whenever prey is killed, a moment before hand it stops struggling and accepts what is happening. there is no ill will present in that situation. every animal must die, but animals know best not to waste things, the interconnectedness of their environment is intuitive.

[running]

Originally Posted by sandalwood

an animal has never killed out of hatred. only out of a need to eat. if you notice whenever prey is killed, a moment before hand it stops struggling and accepts what is happening. there is no ill will present in that situation. every animal must die, but animals know best not to waste things, the interconnectedness of their environment is intuitive.

Except cats. They play with there prey like there's no tomorrow! Lol. But I don't think it has anything to do with hatred.

Originally Posted by sandalwood

an animal has never killed out of hatred. only out of a need to eat. if you notice whenever prey is killed, a moment before hand it stops struggling and accepts what is happening. there is no ill will present in that situation. every animal must die, but animals know best not to waste things, the interconnectedness of their environment is intuitive.

Sorry, but this isn't true.

Dolphins have been observed torturing young porpoises to death... for entertainment. Chimpanzees mutilate rival males.
And lions, when they oust a former leader of a pride kill the cubs of any lionesses in order to make them go into heat - and they don't eat the cubs.