Vajrayana student-teacher relationship

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

That type of relationship is exactly what Buddhism is about.

http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/spirit...cher_guru.html

"To find a Buddha, all you have to do is see your nature. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who's free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don't see your nature and run around all day looking somewhere else, you'll never find a Buddha. The truth is, there's nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand..."
Bodidharma

Which Pali Sutta teaches that please.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Which Pali Sutta teaches that please.

LOL,

Buddhism is much more than the Pali Sutta as you well know.

The Buddha setup a system of monks and told people to take refuge did he not?

A teacher/guru student has been part of Buddhism since it's beginning.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

*Blessed One, addressing the Venerable Ânanda, said:

"I have taught the Dhamma, Ânanda, without making any distinction between exoteric and esoteric doctrine, for in respect of the truth, Ânanda, the Tathâgata has no such thing as the ‘closed fist’ of a teacher who hides some essential knowledge from the pupil.

"It may be, Ânanda, that in some of you the thought may arise, ‘The word of the Master is ended. We have no teacher any more.’ But it is not thus, Ânanda, that you should think.

"The Doctrine and the Discipline which I have set forth and laid down for you,let them, after I am gone, be your teacher. It may be, monks, that there may be doubts in the minds of some brethren as to the Buddha, or the Dhamma, or the Sangha, or the path (magga) or method (patipadâ). Inquire, monks, freely. Do not have to reproach yourselves afterwards with the thought: ‘Our teacher was face to face with us, and we could not bring ourselves to inquire of the Exalted One when we were face to face with him.’*

Mahaparinirvana Sutta.....

Since he is talking to monks and setup an entire monastery system. What you are implying that means on just common sense is wrong. If you look at the history of Buddhism in every tradition... it is teacher based..

Also do you have a link because I can't find your quote when searching for that sutra.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Since he is talking to monks and setup an entire monastery system. What you are implying that means on just common sense is wrong. If you look at the history of Buddhism in every tradition... it is teacher based..

Also do you have a link because I can't find your quote when searching for that sutra.

The Blessed Ones Deadly Sickness..... Mahaparinirvana Sutta...
The Blessed One's Final Exhortation..... Mahaparinirvana Sutta....
Hope this helps.


Yes there are many traditions but only ONE teacher.....Buddha..
When Buddha walked the earth teachings were all oral so his Disciples were important, now we have written Suttas so one can learn alone if you choose, teachers/gurus are not as important as they were in Buddha's days.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

The Blessed Ones Deadly Sickness..... Mahaparinirvana Sutta...
The Blessed One's Final Exhortation..... Mahaparinirvana Sutta....
Hope this helps.


Yes there are many traditions but only ONE teacher.....Buddha..
When Buddha walked the earth teachings were all oral so his Disciples were important, now we have written Suttas so one can learn alone if you choose, teachers/gurus are not as important as they were in Buddha's days.

They were oral because people didn't write much stuff down in those day's.

The sutras don't teach you the methods of Buddhism like a teacher would. The sutras alone will do you no good. It is the practices.

Also, I asked for links to your quote not the name of the sutra. As I mentioned earlier I can't find your quote when looking for Mahaparinirvana Sutta. Which is a Mahayana sutra fyi :)

Are you sure you are not confusing it with the Maha-parinibbana Sutta? Which I still can't find your quote in.

[jonesboy]

Found it.

It is the same sutra about being a light/lamp/island unto yourself.

We talked about that recently in another thread and when looking for the meaning of the sutra it is universally understood to not mean go it yourself. That teachers are bad.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Found it.

It is the same sutra about being a light/lamp/island unto yourself.

We talked about that recently in another thread and when looking for the meaning of the sutra it is universally understood to not mean go it yourself. That teachers are bad.

AS soon as someone comes into share their practice that they are experiencing their way through the many paths within one they are choosing to open deeper too, those who stay in their mind-set over such matters end up in right/wrong teachings arguments in that thread. Interesting to say the least..

Makes me ponder this passing thought...When will you all see yourself deeper beyond your own mindsets of right and wrong teachings?

Miracles do happen.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by bluebird21

Hi Guys,

I have this past year entered into a powerful student-teacher relationship. It is extremely potent and I often feel completely naked and vulnerable before my teacher, who sees me with a cutting clarity and this is reflected back to me. The closeness and love is unlike anything I have experienced even with family. In fact, honestly, I have never experienced this level of intimacy and transparency in my life. Upon meeting we both recognized each other and he has told me we know each other from (at least) a past life.

He is a highly respected buddhist vajrayana teacher, the highest level teacher in his lineage of Buddhism. MANY of my concepts have been cut through by this relationship, it's unbelievable how much more free and open-minded I am.

I am entering retreat with him soon and am feeling, well, quite nervous!!! I have fallen completely in (unattached) love and feel INTENSE devotion.

I'm wondering if any of you are in vajrayana student-teacher relationships? And what your experience is?

Vajrayana is tantric Buddhism, in which there is much emphasis on the student-teacher relationship being intimate, sometimes even closer than family.

Personally I don't know anything about that kind of Buddhism, and people here haven't practiced in the way you are and intend to. In the kind of Buddhism I am familiar with there aren't any 'guru teachers', just teachers of meditation. Some of the more radical practitioners give a special guruic type of status to teachers, but teachers never claim that of themselves.

I think the best thing to do is always be self-honest and keep your power of saying yes and no, because the kind of relationship you describe is not an equal relationship, the guru being in a far more influential position, and we should never give over our self-determination to the influence of those in a more powerful position. You have the right of consent and refusal.

It's important to always be truthful with yourself, because when our revered figures might instruct us to do things that go against our better sensibility, especially when it comes to proving ones worth to them, such as demonstrating a proper spiritual level, we can be easily tempted. Being true to oneself is critical to any spiritual path.

One has to be careful about emotional attachment and reliance, and how that balances with trust, which is only ever prudent with those who hold us in the highest regard and respect our personal boundaries.

There has to be boundaries in student teacher relations because of of the power imbalance, and in understanding that your guru is more influential over you that you are over him is important in this regard.

Just remember who's boss when it comes to you, your life, and what you do.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

AS soon as someone comes into share their practice that they are experiencing their way through the many paths within one they are choosing to open deeper too, those who stay in their mind-set over such matters end up in right/wrong teachings arguments in that thread. Interesting to say the least..

Makes me ponder this passing thought...When will you all see yourself deeper beyond your own mindsets of right and wrong teachings?

Miracles do happen.

What I saw is someone who came here posted about his Buddhist practice. The joy and the progress he has made with a teacher and people telling him to be careful because that isn't Buddhism. To be very, very careful and how bad Tibetan Buddhism is.

Then to make the point that what he was doing is wrong and not Buddhism is to take a quote out of context to enforce the belief that real Buddhism doesn't need a teacher except the Buddha. Forget the fact that his is in a Buddhist tradition that is thousands of years old and practiced by 18 million people.

What is interesting NF is that the one person who is happy for the guy, not telling him what he is doing isn't Buddhism is the one you are saying is stuck in a mindset of right and wrong teachings?

Instead I would say look in the mirror and see what you are being a part of.

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What I saw is someone who came here posted about his Buddhist practice. The joy and the progress he has made with a teacher and people telling him to be careful because that isn't Buddhism. To be very, very careful and how bad Tibetan Buddhism is.

Then to make the point that what he was doing is wrong and not Buddhism is to take a quote out of context to enforce the belief that real Buddhism doesn't need a teacher except the Buddha. Forget the fact that his is in a Buddhist tradition that is thousands of years old and practiced by 18 million people.

What is interesting NF is that the one person who is happy for the guy, not telling him what he is doing isn't Buddhism is the one you are saying is stuck in a mindset of right and wrong teachings?

Instead I would say look in the mirror and see what you are being a part of.

What I see this is a trap, it's a trap. But before he or she is trapped inside , he still have a chance to get out that's why most of the comments are on that part by guru-student abuse. It can be other possibilities but this is true.

They're many examples by others' encounter that I've seen in the Chinese googling. But I don't check for the English section.

It's especially by the Tibetan Buddhism ...... So when they're many such examples by such practice. Of course in other religions they're also have such abuse but it's comparably less. This is the one practicing of spells and incantations then it's totally the students can't do anything to deny be him|her consciously or under the influence of bewitched may be .......