Lost and confused

[shakeithbaker]

Had a question. The Pentecostal church came to my home and as we got to talking. They mentioned to me and my family that when someone dies or gets murdered ete etc. That was Heavenly Father who really took their lives. They say that God can only take your live. Can someone maybe explain how this can be. It was hard for me and my family to except🙁🙁🙁

[MARDAV70]

So, if someone commits suicide, did God cause that? When I was a Christian I was taught that suicide is an unforgivable sin. If God is all powerful and only he controls who and how one dies then either God causes one to commit suicide...otherwise it would be impossible to do it. Does either option make sense, and if not, then concerning suicide what does this tell you about what is said about control of this "God" concerning how/when/where ones dies?

[Crystal Ambassador]

I'd be curious to hear their rationale that God can only take lives; do they mean that lives can only be taken by God, or that God is incapable of giving life and thus can only take it?

Within my personal beliefs, everything that exists - paradoxical as it comes out to be - is God. People, air, animals, trees, cars, trash, death, ballpoint pens... all of it, made of God. So based on that viewpoint, I agree that death would be caused by God. As would life, and everything else. Suicide included, as the God-self that is the person would be taking their own - God's - life from their own God-self. It can be a bit much to wrap your head around, especially when considering the paradoxes. In the end it comes down to this; God can exist in any form, and can exist in two forms that seem impossible to exist simultaneously. The God one person believes in could be only capable of taking lives, and the God another person believes in could be only capable of giving lives. Neither is wrong, and what you choose to believe in is just as true as what someone else believes in.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by shakeithbaker

Had a question. The Pentecostal church came to my home and as we got to talking. They mentioned to me and my family that when someone dies or gets murdered ete etc. That was Heavenly Father who really took their lives. They say that God can only take your live. Can someone maybe explain how this can be. It was hard for me and my family to except🙁🙁🙁

I currently understand that there is only god or Divine Being/Energy in all of creation. God makes and is everything and every event so, yes, god both gives and takes lives and a lot more. God is all that happens and is, was and ever will be. This is all god. God alone exists but keeps it a secret by making herself believe she is: suns, planets, continents, rocks, trees, plants, animals, people, dramas, science, music, murder, torture, politics, politicians, lying, cheating, stealing, heroes, heroins, daemons, messiahs and on and on. Most folks (who are also god) don't like this concept because it THREATENS their ego so god allows herself to doubt what she does and sticks with what people (as god) can handle. You are god. I am god. God is god. God is all that there is! Sorry ego.............

[Busby]

Originally Posted by shakeithbaker

Had a question. The Pentecostal church came to my home and as we got to talking. They mentioned to me and my family that when someone dies or gets murdered ete etc. That was Heavenly Father who really took their lives. They say that God can only take your live. Can someone maybe explain how this can be. It was hard for me and my family to except🙁🙁🙁

It's quite amazing that there are people who cannot sort out their own thoughts - here I'm talking about the pentecosts.

Look - if you think that you live doing God's will then you yourself have no choice - you are supposed to have free will, but doing God's will in the sense that you have no choice evades the question of your free will. If you only can do what some god has decided for you then you are not responsible for what happens. So we should not be putting any murderers in jail - this must also be a basic belief of the pentecosts if they persue such a belief.

Now if we have free will we can also commit suicide without being afraid of any 'punishment' because God cannot give us free will and when we use it then tell us we shouldn't have done that. On the other hand, as per the pentecosts and their belief that only God can... it would also mean that God, when one commits suicide, is the one who has seen it through - so no 'sin' at all.

If you get terribly ill - and normally the chance would be great that you'd die, this is then God's will. So for goodness sake don't take any medicine to cure an illness - this is going against his will, although if he wants you to die you have no choice so take as much medicine as you want. If he doesn't want you to die you needn't take the medicine at all.

And so on.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Busby

Look - if you think that you live doing God's will then you yourself have no choice -

The blunder here, which Non-duality clears up, is the belief or assumption that "god" (reality) is some person who is separate from you and you are some person who is separate from god. Like a divine parent and her undivine, sinful children. So of course you will have no choice if you are living your parent's will - like a small child HAVING to mow the lawn! You believe that, as a separate person, you have free will but that might collide or conflict with god's free will so there's a problem. So which "will" are you supposed to follow - god's or yours?
Non-duality clears this up by making the point that there is only one being, consciousness, mind, life, god, reality, etc. so god's will is your will and your will is god's will because there is only god (you). When you decide something, god is actually deciding it because there is only god or Divine Being in the entire cosmos. There are not 2 (realities) - just One. If I scratch an itch on my face, god scratched it! God is typing these words! God is sitting here looking, breathing, thinking, laughing, etc. I do have "free will" but it's actually the will of god or Divinity expressing AS me - Jim - a person BUT not separated from Divinity!

you are supposed to have free will,

Who/what is the "you" in that statement? If examined very deeply this apparently separate "you" turns out to be the Source! It may seem to be a separate, entity/person BUT, when closely examined, you are NOTHING - which when examined closer turns out to be EVERYTHING! So you do have "free will" but not as an apparently separate person. You have it as and from the Source!

but doing God's will in the sense that you have no choice evades the question of your free will.

This question only arises if and when you, an assumed separate person, believe that you and god, another separate person, are in conflict = my will verses your will! My "free will" is actually god's will being done. Jesus said, "Thy will, NOT MY WILL, be done." Jesus could have said, "OUR WILL BE DONE." or maybe Jesus could have said, "Thy will ALONE be done because my will is also your will, father." The question of my will vs. god's will only comes up for a separate, egoic entity who believes it is on it's own and wants to get it's own way even at the risk of upsetting god! Free will is actually a misconception based on the assumption of an independent, separate individual when no such individual even exists!

If you only can do what some god has decided for you then you are not responsible for what happens.

LOL, that was the argument of the Nazi's after the WWII: "I was just following orders!" (so, I am therefore not guilty!) The military court didn't accept that "excuse"!
This is the silly "parent vs. child" scenario where the ego can not be responsible for anything since god made all the decisions and DICTATED the ego's actions. There is only god here and god alone is responsible and also accountable for whatever happens in the Appearance.

So we should not be putting any murderers in jail

We, as god, commit murders and we, as god, hold our self accountable! God is doing it all - killing & jailing. There is no action or reaction anywhere in the cosmos that is NOT done and responded to by anything other than god because god IS all of this -including the murdering and the murderers who must be held accountable and then put in jail.

Now if we have free will we

If someone, like Ramana Maharshi, examines this "we", it will be found that the "we" is NOT a separate individual but is actually the Source or god so the concept of a person being punished for disobeying god is mute since there is no person disobeying but only god doing, disobeying, punishing, etc. Ramana, knowing that everyone is actually god, simply told his followers, "Do no harm". If someone believes they are separate from god and disappoints god, then they will have to fear god and perhaps suffer "punishment" but if a person realizes that there is ONLY god, then they are more likely to "do no harm". They would only be harming them self if they did.

can also commit suicide without being afraid of any 'punishment' because God cannot give us free will and when we use it then tell us we shouldn't have done that.

God "gives" itself free will and if god MISUSES it (suicide), then god tells god "I shouldn't have done that". It always come back to who or what this "you" is in all of these you this and you that scenarios. The "you" is actually god disguised as: you, me, us, we, them, that, those, this, etc.

On the other hand, as per the pentecosts and their belief that only God can... it would also mean that God, when one commits suicide, is the one who has seen it through - so no 'sin' at all.

IMO, there is no "sin" when it's seen that god alone is and does EVERYTHING but I'd say there is "accountability" such as: Jail, Rehab or even execution.

If you get terribly ill - and normally the chance would be great that you'd die, this is then God's will.

Yes, its all god's will and MAYBE you will die.

So for goodness sake don't take any medicine to cure an illness - this is going against his will,

How is god saying "Don't take any medicine"? How did someone go from god wants me (god) to be terribly ill and MAYBE even die, so therefore, I (god) had better not take medicine because that would go against my decision to be sick and PERHAPS DIE?

although if he wants you to die you have no choice so take as much medicine as you want.

God never said he wants you (god) to die. He made you sick and you MIGHT DIE ["the chance would be great that you'd die"] or god made god sick and god might die.

If he doesn't want you to die you needn't take the medicine at all.

If god doesn't want you (god) to die, take medicine or not - its your choice, as god.

Once its seen that all there is is god, consciousness or you, all of these twisted and illogical scenarios of "me vs. god" will end along with all the weird and childish questions about sin, hell, heaven, angels, god, saviors, etc.
Some faiths teach about unity and oneness while others prefer to have folks behaving like frightened children in relationship to a Parental god who judges and punishes or rewards them.
To each his own. If being afraid of god and afraid to use or loose your "free will" is your thing, stick with it. It's your life, god, so enjoy or fear it - it's all you!

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by jimrich

Non-duality clears this up by making the point that
there is only one being..

...there is ONLY god...

The "you" is actually god disguised as: you, me, us, we,
them, that, those, this, etc.

...there is no "sin" when it's seen that god alone is and does EVERYTHING.

What made you so smart ...I'd love to hear your story.
Probably not here, tho, on someone else's thread.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by jimrich

The blunder here, which Non-duality clears up, is the belief or assumption that "god" (reality) is some person who is separate from you and you are some person who is separate from god. Like a divine parent and her undivine, sinful children. So of course you will have no choice if you are living your parent's will - like a small child HAVING to mow the lawn! You believe that, as a separate person, you have free will but that might collide or conflict with god's free will so there's a problem. So which "will" are you supposed to follow - god's or yours?
Non-duality clears this up by making the point that there is only one being, consciousness, mind, life, god, reality, etc. so god's will is your will and your will is god's will because there is only god (you). When you decide something, god is actually deciding it because there is only god or Divine Being in the entire cosmos. There are not 2 (realities) - just One. If I scratch an itch on my face, god scratched it! God is typing these words! God is sitting here looking, breathing, thinking, laughing, etc. I do have "free will" but it's actually the will of god or Divinity expressing AS me - Jim - a person BUT not separated from Divinity!


Who/what is the "you" in that statement? If examined very deeply this apparently separate "you" turns out to be the Source! It may seem to be a separate, entity/person BUT, when closely examined, you are NOTHING - which when examined closer turns out to be EVERYTHING! So you do have "free will" but not as an apparently separate person. You have it as and from the Source!


This question only arises if and when you, an assumed separate person, believe that you and god, another separate person, are in conflict = my will verses your will! My "free will" is actually god's will being done. Jesus said, "Thy will, NOT MY WILL, be done." Jesus could have said, "OUR WILL BE DONE." or maybe Jesus could have said, "Thy will ALONE be done because my will is also your will, father." The question of my will vs. god's will only comes up for a separate, egoic entity who believes it is on it's own and wants to get it's own way even at the risk of upsetting god! Free will is actually a misconception based on the assumption of an independent, separate individual when no such individual even exists!


LOL, that was the argument of the Nazi's after the WWII: "I was just following orders!" (so, I am therefore not guilty!) The military court didn't accept that "excuse"!
This is the silly "parent vs. child" scenario where the ego can not be responsible for anything since god made all the decisions and DICTATED the ego's actions. There is only god here and god alone is responsible and also accountable for whatever happens in the Appearance.


We, as god, commit murders and we, as god, hold our self accountable! God is doing it all - killing & jailing. There is no action or reaction anywhere in the cosmos that is NOT done and responded to by anything other than god because god IS all of this -including the murdering and the murderers who must be held accountable and then put in jail.


If someone, like Ramana Maharshi, examines this "we", it will be found that the "we" is NOT a separate individual but is actually the Source or god so the concept of a person being punished for disobeying god is mute since there is no person disobeying but only god doing, disobeying, punishing, etc. Ramana, knowing that everyone is actually god, simply told his followers, "Do no harm". If someone believes they are separate from god and disappoints god, then they will have to fear god and perhaps suffer "punishment" but if a person realizes that there is ONLY god, then they are more likely to "do no harm". They would only be harming them self if they did.


God "gives" itself free will and if god MISUSES it (suicide), then god tells god "I shouldn't have done that". It always come back to who or what this "you" is in all of these you this and you that scenarios. The "you" is actually god disguised as: you, me, us, we, them, that, those, this, etc.


IMO, there is no "sin" when it's seen that god alone is and does EVERYTHING but I'd say there is "accountability" such as: Jail, Rehab or even execution.


Yes, its all god's will and MAYBE you will die.


How is god saying "Don't take any medicine"? How did someone go from god wants me (god) to be terribly ill and MAYBE even die, so therefore, I (god) had better not take medicine because that would go against my decision to be sick and PERHAPS DIE?


God never said he wants you (god) to die. He made you sick and you MIGHT DIE ["the chance would be great that you'd die"] or god made god sick and god might die.


If god doesn't want you (god) to die, take medicine or not - its your choice, as god.

Once its seen that all there is is god, consciousness or you, all of these twisted and illogical scenarios of "me vs. god" will end along with all the weird and childish questions about sin, hell, heaven, angels, god, saviors, etc.
Some faiths teach about unity and oneness while others prefer to have folks behaving like frightened children in relationship to a Parental god who judges and punishes or rewards them.
To each his own. If being afraid of god and afraid to use or loose your "free will" is your thing, stick with it. It's your life, god, so enjoy or fear it - it's all you!

Yes, exactly. I was talking about people who can't determine what they are saying when they spout some sort of religion and the then resulting confusion.

[Jared.L]

I think that we have our tickets back to haven already. Both birth date and the day we die are determined and decided. Moreover, our soul knows the exact moment we die and it has been agreed long before. God does not take anyone's life. Your live span depends on the lessons to learn and the mission you have in this world.

[Within Silence]

Originally Posted by shakeithbaker

Had a question. The Pentecostal church came to my home and as we got to talking. They mentioned to me and my family that when someone dies or gets murdered ete etc. That was Heavenly Father who really took their lives. They say that God can only take your live. Can someone maybe explain how this can be. It was hard for me and my family to except������

Who cares what the pentecostal church believes? Its only their belief/opinion anyway, they don't know any more than you do. So, whats your take on it? What do you believe, because in actuality thats all that matters anyway, what you believe. And the only problem with coming into a forum asking questions like this is that you will get answers, all kinds of different answers, and so which one is absolute? Which is the correct one? And how could you know its correct? And if you knew the correct answer then why would you be asking?

So, like I said, the only answer that matters is yours, what you believe. Personally I don't spend much time worrying about figuring out if God took this or that person, rather I spend time with those around me, with those I care about, because in the end you won't regret not knowing if God takes people or not, what you'll regret is that you wasted time listening to others opinions about things they actually don't absolutely know and not spending time with those you love and lost. I've been down this road......a few times!

Simply, if God takes people then he does, if he doesn't then he doesn't, and all the belief in the world is not going to change the fact either way. And how could anyone know absolutely? And even if they did know, how could you know absolutely? The belief in another's experience is not your own experience, and without direct experience you cannot know.

Thus, enjoy the time you have with the people you love, when the time is right the answer you're seeking will dawn upon you.