The terms "Dying" and "Death"

[wolfgaze]

Recently a acquired a book authored by my favorite Transpersonal Psychologist which I'll be starting soon... It's called The Ultimate Journey: Consciousness and the Mystery of Death (Stanislav Grof M.D.)... Should be a good read...

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by Zulabelle

Oh, no, I wasn't really referring to people on this forum. Perhaps I've met an abnormal amount of people who romanticize death and dying. (It's quite possible.) Still, though, I don't think any of us can truly predict how we, personally will react and how we will feel when we're dying.

But I agree with you. Especially considering how the matter of death is danced around and practically ignored in many western countries. Hardly any real heartfelt conversation or acceptance (generally speaking)-- just fear and avoidance.

*sighs* This all makes me wish I had become a hospice nurse like I originally wanted to be. For those that are about to give birth, you have doulas and midwives; there ought to be far more equivalent options here in the western part of the world for those that are dying. Since, after all, death is a sort of birth.

Yes, it is still largely a taboo subject.

Re being a hospice nurse: It is not too late. I know someone who became one. She was well into middle-age and a mother of five!
If you know what to say and do, at a time people most need to hear it... A priceless gift.

[Somnia]

Originally Posted by Abbara

As a young girl, I read everything I could find on angels, miracles, death bed experiences, near death, out of body, and so forth. I suspect I was searching for the supernatural essence of God, which in Bible Belt Baptists, is tightly controlled as only happening in the Bible at that time

Hi Abbara...

I can relate to this as I live in the Bible Belt of East Texas...There is still a lot of stigma against those whom are Spiritual but not Religious who look for answers beyond the Bible...Those who are Pagans (and other non-mainstream beliefs) in this area tend to keep their beliefs on the "down low" or only talk about it amongst like minded/souled individuals...but there are more and more people becoming more outspoken with their non-traditional beliefs around here, which is most refreshing...I can only imagine what it must have been like when you were a young girl, when such individuals were *really* kept on a leash (so to speak)...

[Unseelie Queen]

(So many Texas people on this forum!)

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Yes, it is still largely a taboo subject.

Re being a hospice nurse: It is not too late. I know someone who became one. She was well into middle-age and a mother of five!
If you know what to say and do, at a time people most need to hear it... A priceless gift.

Thanks, I'll have to remember that.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

I don't believe anyone is trying to 'romanticize' death, rather dispel the fear, dread and distress of it. Replacing it with truth and light and understanding.

Many here have spoken of having lost their fear of death. One must ask 'why?' Because those who sought to promote truth and light and understanding by publicizing NDEs, death-bed visions, communication from beyond and so forth, have dispelled their fear, dread and distress.

That's death. That's not dying. Dying is separate from death. It certainly leads to death, but it is not death itself.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

So to promote the truth about survival of the spirit and the continuity of life is very necessary to counter the misleading stance and teaching of Orthodoxy.

I never was speaking about orthodoxy. It never even entered my mind. What I've been attempting to get at all along is that some forms of dying are just too extreme in how they affect both the body and the mind as to be impossible to dismiss.

As has been pointed out, panic is a lower-brain function, and is intrinsically part of the kind of dying I was putting forth. When it takes over, no amount of saying "Oh, I'm all spiritually aware and full of Light" and so forth makes any difference. Your conscious mind just isn't working or in full control at that point.

Originally Posted by Michelle11

I agree with you. The dying process is what I am dreading. I believe in an afterlife so I am not so afraid of being dead just what happens as I am leaving. I think this might partly because our brains are wired for survival. Our body, despite some people mentally wanting to check out, does everything in it's power to live. So when we feel a threat to our ability to maintain life we go into panic and scramble to do everything we can to fight or flight away from danger. I guess maybe on some level, if we know we will not survive a particular illness we may make peace with the dying process and it becomes less traumatic but I'm definitely not looking forward to it but hopefully I get a kind that is quick and sudden and I am just out of my body without much fanfare. One can hope.

"wired for survival"

Absolutely. Some things associated with how we experience dying will be purely physiological, beyond the things we imagine in our conscious minds.

And yes, at some point, whatever it is overseeing us and wanting us to be without suffering steps in and we stop dying in order to experience death. But, until that happens, that desire to survive and the panic associated with it will be there. That's simply part of the will to survive.

Originally Posted by Zulabelle

Wonderful post. I feel the same.

Many seem to romanticize not only death, but even the ghastly process of dying. Being a goth at heart, I get it, but-- I don't think most are psychologically prepared to see and feel the period before death, and experience the dissolution of ego. Based on my two experiences, the reptilian brain takes over instantly completely. Just.. Panic panic panic. Like being sucked into a black hole.
But I do look forward to death, itself and the moment of release. (Mainly because I want to be rid of this cumbersome flesh vessel that does not match what I wish to be whatsoever.)

Thanks

Really, I only wrote this because I see the two terms used interchangeably all over the Internet. I can understand people not wanting to remember or include the trauma of the dying part, or of the panic if it's a shorter kind of dying (such as drowning.) But, the body is still alive at that point, even the brain, though the conscious mind does get pushed aside. Unless you've been trained how to "keep your head" in such situations, the panic is all you're going to experience.

The point where we "let go" or where the panic subsides, to me, that's death. Maybe the body is still alive, but that's the point at which people begin to experience a NDE or they are dead, and we talk to them through a medium later. Yes, everything becomes wonderful and wondrous at that point. The dying part isn't like that, unfortunately

Originally Posted by Somnia

Gryneos - I completely understand the differences between "death" and "dying"...

I see them used as meaning the same thing even on this forum, so I felt a need to show the differences as I understood them

Originally Posted by Somnia

I'm guessing this occurs after the fight-or-flight survival instinct begins to dissolve and the body is getting ready to die? I recall nearly drowning at an amusement park many years ago...I was in the deep end of the wave pool and some kid pushed me down into the water (they were panicking for some reason)...It happened very quickly and I didn't have time to react to the situation...Anyway after being pushed down this caused me to gulp in copious amounts of water...I remember feeling panic, but it wasn't fear of death or dying, but the physical response of "I'm not getting any air, I need to breathe!" So, my sudden panic I believe was caused by the bodies' physiology response as I wasn't consciously thinking about dying...I didn't experience thoughts of "This is it! I'm going to die!" or thoughts of "I'm not ready to die yet!" If that makes sense...I was able to get myself above water and managed to get to shallow waters before I experienced the peaceful calm I've heard NDE drowning victims report...

I also recall a close to death experience while I was at a Halloween party several years ago...I became heavily intoxicated and experienced symptoms of alcohol poisoning...I remember not wanting to breath because the effort to breath was too heavy...too much...and I was losing consciousness and didn't realize several people were trying to keep me awake... I remember seeing darkness and I felt an overwhelming feeling of peace and I recall thinking "So this is how I'm going to die huh?..." I didn't feel panic or anxiety (probably from being heavily intoxicated)...I just felt this feeling of peace and I wanted to completely give up so I didn't have to breath anymore...I was almost taken to the hospital until I started vomiting and regained enough consciousnesses to feel "better" about breathing and was able to be escorted back home...I'd say that incident was the closet to death I've experienced in my lifetime thus far...

Sorry to hear you went through those traumatic experiences. And I can see with the second one why you weren't panicking. You could liken it to someone on a morphine drip. They're not feeling anything bad, but their mind is still conscious and aware, so they're more likely to be able to peacefully let go. Yes, that's still dying, but you also still have your mind to say "So this is what dying is like." As you pointed out in your first experience, the panicked mind doesn't bother with esoteric thoughts

[Unseelie Queen]

Originally Posted by Gryneos

Thanks

Really, I only wrote this because I see the two terms used interchangeably all over the Internet. I can understand people not wanting to remember or include the trauma of the dying part, or of the panic if it's a shorter kind of dying (such as drowning.) But, the body is still alive at that point, even the brain, though the conscious mind does get pushed aside. Unless you've been trained how to "keep your head" in such situations, the panic is all you're going to experience.

The point where we "let go" or where the panic subsides, to me, that's death. Maybe the body is still alive, but that's the point at which people begin to experience a NDE or they are dead, and we talk to them through a medium later. Yes, everything becomes wonderful and wondrous at that point. The dying part isn't like that, unfortunately

(I'm in Houston too!)

You're right, the two terms are used interchangeably constantly.

I actually was a bit disappointed in myself (in retrospect) for succumbing to the panic, since I do so much meditation and Jungian shadow work and whatnot, but alas. I suppose there's also a fear of the moment--no matter how brief or long it may be-- between the transition between (sorry, I'm getting redundant) dying and death. Even though, from what I faintly recall-- the actual moment of death and after is, as you said, absolutely wondrous. At least, if my memories can be trusted. It felt like being catapulted at the speed of light and scattered like celestial confetti-- all at once-- and there was a profound and blissful sense of never-ending connected-ness to everything in existence.

I imagine that if one experiences ego death (I'm sure not all do) during the dying process, it can be especially painful and panic-inducing.

Of course, I'm typing this as a song called "I Am Stretched On Your Grave" comes on shuffle..

[wolfgaze]

I'm looking forward to the transition... Should be quite the adventure...