Old testament god

Originally Posted by Yamah

When learning any book it is first worthwhile to ask the author of its correct interpretation. If the author is unavailable then it is best to ask those the author chooses to convey his intentions. Torah is God's work and the Jewish people are those He chose to safeguard it. Thus, before anything else, it is probably best to ask for a traditional Jewish interpretation.

The trouble is the author is supposedly God. But some how the O.T. does make God out to be too evil. I believe God is about love

How much we try and use the old chest nut {taken out of context } It still does not excuse the book for portraying God as an evil villain .

[psychoslice]

Yamah: psycho: Being that you do not contribute facts or arguments, merely insults and snide comments, makes you a troll. We have been over how I feel about your non-input in the past and I don't want to repeat myself on this issue. I never name-call any who make actual statements worthy of discussion, as Dawn has. Please don't put words into my mouth it is not appreciated. I will not respond to your next post, which will most likely be more of the same.


It doesn't worry me one bit if you don't respond to my post, I'm not sharing this just for you, you are conditioned to believing what you believe, so there is no shifting you from where you are no matter what anyone says.

Originally Posted by Dawn1976

Well, I've read the bible in context. For 9 straight years I studied it, read the Hebrew texts, studied Hebrew words, studied Greek, studied translations, etc. As a former Christian, I can say that the God of the Old Testament is not the prime creator of the universe.

There is no justification for the violent and merciless slayings of innocent people, ordered at the hands of an "all loving God."

Women were treated as property. The life of an infant girl was worth less than an infant boy. A woman was stoned to death if she was not a virgin on her wedding night. Oh, but if she was raped, then no worries - because she was usually forced to marry her rapist, so he wouldn't expect her to be a virgin.

But men were allowed to have sex outside of marriage (and before marriage) - the only exception was that the woman had to be single and not 'belong' to another man.

Women could be bought and sold into sex slavery. Although it's not called 'sex slave' in the bible. It's called 'female servant,' and the master was allowed to have children with his female servant - hence a sex slave.

In one battle, men were allowed to take the virgin women of their enemies as their own wives, but the pregnant women, and their children, and married women of their enemies, were to be killed.

The true creator of the universe, or "prime creator" as I like to call it, is one of love. There is no demonstration of love based on the characteristics of the God of the OT.

It's probably more like the Sumerians described in their texts: several creator Gods existed and ruled over mankind. Enki, Enlil, and their siblings, all worshipped as the God of the universe - but they were not.

Totally agree

The major problem is people are scared to give something up or question it because it has been the norm for so many centuries.
The same as when the theory that the world was round came about this too was attacked .

Truth is the evolving of spiritual understanding .In 300 years time we will be considered primitive.

[Dawn1976]

Originally Posted by Yamah

Dawn:

There is no justification for the violent and merciless slayings of innocent people, ordered at the hands of an "all loving God."
Most certainly not, and I'm glad you used the word 'innocent' in your statement. Innocence is, however, difficult to determine by mortals which is why we must go through a rigorous process of judgement before a potential execution. Divine Decree is exempt from this process as God is fully capable of making full and correct judgement of a person's worth and innocence. If He says someone is worthy of death then who are we to argue?

Killing someone, for whatever reason, is a negative action - no getting around it. Prime Creator is the essence of love, and we have total and complete free will. If we use that free will to hurt others, sooner or later we will reap what we sow, and that type of energy we send out will come back to us. With this 'karmic law' in place there is no need for God to send out his 'holy army' to slaughter others.
And let's forget the adults who were killed - there were babies and animals that were killed, how can we say they were not innocent?

Originally Posted by yamah

Women were treated as property.
Now this is not true. Neither women nor slaves are treated as property. There are some overlapping laws between ownership and slavery but none between ownership and marriage. For example, property can be sold; women cannot be sold but rather must marry of their own volition. Even an arranged marriage and forced marriages such as by rape victims must be agreed upon by the woman or else it can't be completed (this law isn't mentioned explicitly from the text but is explained in the Gemara in detail; a good example of why learning and assuming on your own is perilous).[

How can you say women weren't treated as property? A father can sell his daughter into slavery, and she wasn't set free after 6 years as the men were. A man could also take another wife after he bought his 'maidservant,' but had to continue to give the maidservant her food and clothing and conjugal rights (aka marriage rights). No where in Exodus 21:7does it say she was given in marriage. It is clear that this passage is about female slaves.
As far as what the Gemara says, I may be wrong here, but the Gamara was teachings from the Rabbis after the destruction of the second temple. Clearly the laws I'm referring to were before the first temple was even built. And I'm talking about laws that are clearly stated as being from God, not oral traditions from Rabbis.

Originally Posted by yamah

Another example is that property can be used however the owner sees fit, while the man has certain contractual obligations to his wife, such as keeping her happy, satisfied and comfortable. In fact the marriage contract is mostly about what the man must do for his wife and very little is said about what the woman must do for her husband. If anything we should say that it's unfair for the man.

The man was to be kept happy, if he wwasn't satisfied he had to let her go by divorcing her. Notice a woman is not allowed to divorce her husband if she is not satisfed - just the man is allowed to divorce. Female maidservants were to be set free (but not divorced because legally they weren't married) if he was unhappy with her, but not the other way around.

Originally Posted by yamah

The life of an infant girl was worth less than an infant boy.
Not sure to what you are referring. Are you referring to the value of infant slaves? If so then it's based on the amount of physical labour they can perform. If not - please let me know where I can find the verse/passage/law to which you are refering.

Leviticus 27. When dedicating your son or daughter to the service of the Lord, the value was placed based on age and gender.

A woman was stoned to death if she was not a virgin on her wedding night. Oh, but if she was raped, then no worries - because she was usually forced to marry her rapist, so he wouldn't expect her to be a virgin.
I addressed this point in an earlier post.

Yes, and there was no Talmud when these laws were written. My point is that we can see the character of God because we're told HE wrote the laws.

But men were allowed to have sex outside of marriage (and before marriage) - the only exception was that the woman had to be single and not 'belong' to another man.
Untrue. Men are not allowed to have relations out of wedlock either. Leviticus 19:29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."

The passage you quote in Lev 19 is only referring to men having relations with Israelite women. Most Israelite men weren't sleeping with the girl next door, they saw harlots, or slept with the women of other nations. Ever wonder why all the men knew where Rahab the harlot lived? What about Judah, the act of him sleeping with a harlot was not condemned, even though it was his daughter in law in disguise, and he was married. No where do you find in the OT the stipulation on men being virgins, or men being sexually faithful to their wives only.

In one battle, men were allowed to take the virgin women of their enemies as their own wives, but the pregnant women, and their children, and married women of their enemies, were to be killed.
I don't remember this one so clearly. Can you remind me where I can find this story?

Numbers 31 the story of the pillage of the Midianites. Judges 21, the story of how there weren't enough women virgins taken captive from the battle at Jabesh-gilead, so they hid in the vineyards when they knew the women of Shiloh were going to have a dancing festival celebration, lied in wait and then kidnapped them and kept them as wives.
Deut 21 - if you are going to war and you see a beautiful women among the nation you are warring against, you are allowed to take her as a wife, but she must shave her head and go thru mourning first, then you can marry her. If he dislikes her, she must be set free and cannot sell her - because she was forced to marry (by compulsion), therefore God says he must let her go. Oh gee, thanks God.

Love is not showering a person with kisses and saying 'there there'. Love is ensuring that another can be the best possible version of him or her self. The God that is always with us is not a God who gives us everything that we want. This is evidenced by the fact that we don't always get what we want. When it needs to happen, God allows or even urges that cars crash, bridges collapse, earthquakes rumble, tsunamis destroy coasts, etc. Everything that happens in this world is God. He is not a pushover. He is not happy when we do bad things. He is willing to purge individuals or groups from our midst if it is necessary for our betterment. He still loves us, of course. A parent doesn't love his child less when forced to enact a grounding or a spanking for the child's correction. No parent enjoys punishing a child but sometimes it is necessary. Don't forget that God is bigger than us; He thinks and acts on a much larger scale than we little individuals can conceive.

Don't take my word for all of this; open your eyes and look around. In this world, all is God... and in this world we can find some seemingly terrible things.

Sure we have to disciple our kids, but I'm not talking about discipline. The bible clearly lays out one demonstration after another of a violent God. I would never kill my child, but God allowed other nations to kill and capture Israelites. I would never ask my child to kill someone else - but God sure does.
It's all there, plain to see. I denied it all for years, tried to justify God's actions, but it just became too much. Prime Creator is not the God of the OT. The God of the OT is most likely Enlil, one of the Gods of the Sumerians.

Reminds me of a passage in the book of Judas. Jesus laughed at the disciples when they were praying over their food before eating. he laughed and stated that the God they were worshipping they mistakenly worshipped as the creator of the universe (all things). He said they were worshipping a God who created this world, but not the creator of everything.

Yep, sounds like one of the creator gods that the Sumerians spoke of.

Killing someone, for whatever reason, is a negative action - no getting around it.
Yes, it's true. Killing a person, even if it is justified, is a negative action. Judaism doesn't follow the construct 'two wrongs don't make a right', however. Sometimes a negative action is necessary to correct negativity. Occasionally, grounding a child for misbehaving works or taking away his favorite toy or yes, even spanking. God perceives more than this universe - He knows the order of our souls and He knows what is best for us in the eternal scheme.

We are supposed to be merciful and kind in this world, that is what God wants of us. Your insistance that killing is wrong is true, just and noble and most people should hold that perspective. It is only supposed to be in the hands of a select few to make the difficult decisions for the greater good. I think that's one of the biggest problems with the world today. With all this media attention and public knowledge the select few can't possibly make the difficult decisions - there are two many innocent people watching.

In a perfect world nobody would die, nobody would kill and nobody would perform any kind of negative deed. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world and this imperfect world is far vaster than our understanding of it.



How can you say women weren't treated as property? A father can sell his daughter into slavery, and she wasn't set free after 6 years as the men were.
OK, first of all, here were are speaking of slave women so even IF slave women were treated as property it does not mean that non-slave women are treated as property. Second of all, slaves were also not treated as property. There was a big overlap in laws but not to the point where one could be equated to the other. Even in this section it says "He has no right to sell her to foreigners" - Exodus 21:8. If she were property then the owner could sell her to whomever he wished. All you are pointing out here is that there is a difference in how male and female slaves were treated and since nowadays all slavery is considered wrong neither side would be considered fair.

...[T]he Gamara was teachings from the Rabbis after the destruction of the second temple.
The Gemara was codified by the Rabbis after the destruction of the second temple based on the discussions of earlier rabbis based on the Mishna, which was written just after its' destruction which was based on the oral tradition kept over from the giving of the Torah. The Gemara was written because disagreements began to occur between rabbis and they didn't want the oral tradition to degrade any more than it already did. If you have ever seen a passage of the Gemara you will note that they discuss every minutia of every law in the greatest of detail, beginning from vastly different perspectives and attempting, sometimes successfully and sometimes not, to arrive at the correct interpretation and application of any given law. We Jews consider the Gemara an authoritative companion to the Torah and hold it with as much respect as the Torah itself.


The man was to be kept happy, if he wwasn't satisfied he had to let her go by divorcing her. Notice a woman is not allowed to divorce her husband if she is not satisfed - just the man is allowed to divorce. Female maidservants were to be set free (but not divorced because legally they weren't married) if he was unhappy with her, but not the other way around.

Yes, this is an unequality between men and women. The one thing you didnt mention is that when a man divorces a woman he must give her a large lump sum of money as was agreed upon when they got married. Later rabbinic authorities put a beaurocratic structure in place so that this process could not be abused, by requiring the consent of both parties, by adding in loopholes to the marriage contract whereby the woman can initiate a divorce and making it so that mediation was required during the process so that it cannot be executed upon a whim.

Besides this structure, if a man was ever to be found mistreating his wife in any way, shape or form he was severely punished by the courts. There is no possible punishment granted to women for mistreating her husband.

What this means is that yes, men and women are viewed differently within the Torah. There is no question about that. Some laws apply to men, some to women, some to both. Men and Women are seen as having different roles in a relationship and indeed within the world but both sexes' rights are taken into account in their own way. The relationship dynamic within a Torah home is very specific and outlines the roles of both parties. Both have rights and obligations different to one another. This does not mean one is considered superior and the other inferior, merely that they are different.

Leviticus 27. When dedicating your son or daughter to the service of the Lord, the value was placed based on age and gender.
This is referring to the amount of money they need to dedicate to the temple when they redeem themselves. I'll have to look this passage up before I reply to it as I'm not overly familiar with its interpretations. But even IF this is an objective valuation of the worth of Men vs. the worth of Women it's not saying that women are property... both men and women are given values.


The passage you quote in Lev 19 is only referring to men having relations with Israelite women.

Though it wasn't explicitly forbidden to have relations with a non-Israelite women it was extremely frowned upon. The practice of taking non-Jewish prostitutes when it would occur was NOT biblically authorized and is an example of a 'sinner with permission from the Torah' as the Rambam would put it. There are several such 'loopholes' within the law that can be taken advantage of and I don't think should be considered in this discussion.


Numbers 31 the story of the pillage of the Midianites.

Firstly, there is a difference between Biblical Accounts and Biblical Law. Accounts of the past are to be taken in the context of the time in which they occurred. Law is to be taken in the context of eternal existence. The stories in Numbers, Judges etc. were accounts of wars at a time of warlords, pre-society in many ways. The social structure back then was very different from how it is now and the Torah was thus expressed in a different context.

That being said, I'll go over the cases you raised.



The Midianites were considered Israel's cousins, being the country where Jethro, Moses' step-father was from. Thus intermarriage between them was considered OK. They took the women and children to be a part of their nation instead of leaving them to die or slaughtering them.

Judges 21 is a complicated chapter, connected to the previous chapters which need to be properly understood first. Note that this was not God saying to do this, but the 'elders of Israel' who were trying to repair a broken situation. Their decree was not right and the Torah does not say that God approved of their decision. That whole time in history was dark and, as it says at the end of that chapter, "In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his eyes." This was a kind of back-handed rebuke to everything that happened throughout the book of Judges, saying that without a structured government which can uphold the laws, things like kidnapping women for wives can occur.

Deut 21 is explained as a way to prevent men from taking their wives by taking them from the battlefield. In such a situation the man will see a pretty girl and snatch her up, only connecting with her extremely superficially. After she shaves her head, lets her fingernails grow out and cries in the middle of his home for days on end all the superficial attraction fades away. If he still wants to marry her after that, it means there is something deeper at work, a soul attraction that compels him to still want her. People find their soul-mates in all sorts of ways and God does not close any doors on potential relationships, only helps us make sure we make the right decisions for the proper reasons.



Sure we have to disciple our kids, but I'm not talking about discipline. The bible clearly lays out one demonstration after another of a violent God.

As I mentioned before, there's a difference between stories and laws, stories which had to happen at those times and laws which are to be upheld for eternity. It happens to be that the birth of Israel was filled with wars and conflicts, which was the language of the time. If you read the laws you will see that it is very difficult for the king of Israel to mount an army for his own purposes - the only wars we are allowed to fight are wars over the land of Israel. Most of the laws in the Torah are civil law, about how to run a nation during times of peace. That is truly what God wants from us and from all of His children in all nations of the world - to live in peace. All of the prophecies of the end of days end in peace. He tells us that these end days can be brought about through peaceful means if we simply strive to be good people, or through war if we continue to sin and strive towards selfishness; if we do right and good, we get right and good in return. If we do bad and wrong then we get the same in return. A version of 'karmic law'.

When it comes to the people of Israel, he views us as a whole nation - we are all interconnected. Nobody would say to a father 'why did you spank his bottom, it was his hand that took the cookie!' We are all One. When one person sins it affects us all, and when one person suffers we should all suffer with him. Israel sinned a lot... we were not the prime example of devotion and goodness that God wished of us and for all of our sins we were punished accordingly. That's the contract we agreed to when being incarnated into these roles, whether we remember it or not. All the greatest people are born in strict homes which encourage growth and don't just shower down love.

And again, as I have said, if you want evidence that God doesn't just shower down love, look at the world around us. There are wars and famine and senseless acts. Everything happens for a reason, even those. It is not our place to define God, it is our place to listen to Him. Listen to the world, all of it, not just the pretty trees in your backyard. If you isolate yourself you may find peace, meanwhile the rest of the world is falling apart.

Sometimes Im glad I do not have to follow religion

It would give me a headache trying to justify killing,genocide,infantcide,slavery,etc