Critical Thinking Discouraged in Spirituality?

[Moonglow]

Hello,

In regards to opposing or challenging another belief and/or experience.

IMO, it is in the manner in which one may oppose or challenge another belief and/or practice.

I get the "show me" or proof that may be needed by some and also to have caution not to take everything as "fact".

I would say either check the "facts" out or give constructive information/opposition.

Some things are a matter of faith for one and upon this, I feel, proof is hard to give that will convince everyone. Some other things are what one may come to realize for oneself, whether through a practice or just taking a deeper notice of things.

I feel we are all different and have bits and pieces upon looking at life that are not going to meet everyone scruples.

Good to question and at times even give caution if a practice seems dangerous or takes a lot more training then what may be presented.

What is spirituality anyways? I don't expect this question to have a blanket answer.

It seems to me to be a personal thing with some common threads that run through it. Then again this may be true of most teachings. It is, to me, what rings true for the individual.

Some things I find are just ideas to toss around and find whether they hold any value or truth.

Peace






.

Originally Posted by HBuck72

What I meant by demaning proof is in regard fantastic claims, or outright false information, that could be tested and proven/disproven

For example, if someone says they can raise the dead, levitate, control the weather, etc.... then prove it! If you espouse a crazy conspiracy theory.... then prove it! If this new fad diet/meditation/practice is going to cure you of all your diseases.... prove it! If Jesus/Buddha/Krishna/Muhammad did or said something, then back it up with a source.

I understand that by its very nature spirituality is in many ways unprovable, because it is dealing in matters and realms beyond the material realm, and each persons experience is different. However, my problem is when people are making claims that could be proven/disproven; however, when you seek to prove or disprove them with facts and the scientific method, you are berated by other "spiritual people". for not being (insert favorite New Age buzzword here) enough.

Just as w/ other subjects various trite tactics are used by some for those w/ whom they disagree in spiritual discussions of all types. The classic mainstay of organized religion is being under satan’s influence when other’s beliefs differ. New Age discussions have a creative variety of tactics some use to dismiss others’ beliefs such as not being heart-based or being in Oneness, including, astonishingly, criticizing how others think about energetic/spiritual issues. These are weak devices to distract or demean others’ differing POV. These tactics often substitute for having a persuasive POV.

Many fantastic claims are made w/ conspiracy theory sites, many of which are continually fear mongering. Flawed reasoning abounds on many of these sites. These unfortunate sites distract from legitimate whistleblowers’ issues.

Some energetic things can’t be proven except by direct experience or by taking it as fact from someone that you trust sufficiently. For instance, some may completely scoff at astral projecting despite many having had these experiences. When one has experienced this there is seldom much doubt that about whether this is a mere dream.

How do we prove this personal experience involving unseen energies? Some of this is compiling a body of knowledge of reports by those who have nothing to gain by providing an account of their experiences. Many of these accounts surface on this site by those who haven’t been trying to have energetic experiences, have had a spontaneous one, don’t know what happened, are reporting what they felt, & are trying to figure out if this is a normal energetic experience or if they are crazy & just had a break w/ reality. Others are knowledgable about the subject & provide accounts in a way that seem to not be inflated. While some of these may be appropriate to discount for various reasons, when thousands of people are reporting that they have had a particular type of energetic experience it bears giving some credence to these reasonable reports.

Other proof about things that are energy work or energy medicine is gained in the manner of observation such as occurs w/ evaluating the efficacy of psychological therapy protocols. One such energy medicine technique, EMDR for PSTD has been effective enough to be used by the US Veterans Administration. This is also used for nonmilitary PSTD by therapists.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/treatment-ptsd.asp

I don’t know who said this, but it is good advice. Be an open minded skeptic. Have the flexibility to allow for that which may seem fantastic. It might be not as odd as we think. There are countless examples in history of things such as space flight that were considered fantasy only 50 years prior to their being achieved. In spiritual thought things that are shocking heresy or considered way-out fringe beliefs are often considered valid 50 years later & can be mainstream thought 100 years later.

ive often thought of this myself. as spitirual as i am, my wife is even more so and sometimes that has concerned me somewhat. what i mean by that is the very reason you speak of. she is very open minded, and wants to trust people, even if they havnt earned that trust, just because its apparantly the right thing to do. she always says "things will work out" regardless of how in the dumps the situation is at the time. i on the other hand have always been more critical of everything. im not negative, but rather cautious. and i dont think thats a bad thing, as it doesnt hurt anyone around me, but at the same time protects me and my family. an example recently is our basement renovation. every contractor we talked to and got a quote from wanted around $10,000 up front, without even picking up a hammer. i've seen what happens to people on "Holmes on Holmes" from contractors taking large sums of money, and never being heard from again, and that wasnt going to happen to me. if someone is in a position to really effect our lives, i dont give them an open opportunity to do so. i truly think critical thinking is imperative in life, in this case it was street skills. more to the point, critical thinking and spirituality can definately coexist. as many books as ive read about spitituality, ive read as many books on science, and ive seen more and more science books suggest only certain aspects of science can be explained by spiritual theories. and im seeing this more and more. there have been a few books that incorporate both fields into one, and those are fascinating reads. im very intrigued by many of the spiritual abilities of the human psyche, and im always very pleased to research and find in many cases, scientific experiments that back it up.

As in all things... be open-minded, but not so open that your brain falls out!!
In other words, if it works for you, accept until further info comes along to cement your belief or disprove it once and for all. If it doesn't work, smile and nod and walk away...

I hold the view that I can't possibly know all that is 'real', but I won't throw common sense out the window either.

It is, the romans used the "fear of god" thing to get people to practice religio. I guess thats where the whole "christianity is the only way, fear god" came from.

[skygazer]

Originally Posted by HBuck72

One of the things that has been bothering me lately with the new age/spirituality/etc. culture, is the lack of critical thinking. I am not necessarily talking about any one person in particular, or even this forum in particular, but just my overall experience over the past decade.

It seems that there are always new bandwagons to jump on whether it is a new conspiracy theory, meditation trend, guru, etc., The problem, at least for me, is that when someone critically questions the validity of these new claims/movements, or demands proof, they are immediately attacked for not being “open minded” or “compassionate enough”.

To give one example, I had an acquaintance recently post an article stating how important marijuana is to Buddhism. Of course you at the end of the piece you had several marijuana afficionados give the obligatory, “way cool” “awesome”, etc. statements. Then several Buddhist oriented people (including myself) chimed in that he was off his rocker, and demanded some sources for his information, because taking any kind of intoxicant/mind altering drug is against the 1 of the 5 precepts of Buddhism. Therefore, there may be fringe groups who use marijuana, but as a whole any kind of intoxicant (even including alcohol) is discouraged. Almost immediately those of us who demanded actual proof for the claims, or back up sources, were attacked by other people as being mean, self-centered, too mainstream, not spiritually advanced enough, too closed minded, etc.

I for one am all for being open minded and compassionate, but I also think that you should apply the God given gift of reason and critical thinking to some of these claims. I have seen far too many people get burned and turned off of spirituality completely because they bought into a fad, or followed a charlatan guru, where just a little critical thinking and fact checking would have saved a lot of pain and grief. To me, poking holes in potentially bogus fads and claims in order to expose them as false, and to help people not run down the proverbial rabbit hole, is no different than me telling someone not to walk into a burning building. If the claims are true, they should be able to stand up to critical thinking, and be able to offer some proof.

Thoughts? Experiences with this?

I am all for critical thinking, but also believe in live and let live. If someone's beliefs don't match my own or are too "out there" for me I don't feel compelled to poke holes in what they propose. I consider anything to be possible and put it through my own filter.

The problem with debating back and forth is that the subject loses it's meaning, and it becomes about the ego. I like to stay focused on the subject, and it is important for me to keep a vigilant eye on my ego.

So what if some are walking around believing what I think is a "fad", it's their path they are walking, and none of my bees wax.

Spirituality, by the way is not a new age fad. In it's many forms, it's as old as our earth. I wonder sometimes, if it isn't the very basis for our existence.
It's the mainstream media and others with agendas that have attached "new age" labels to the various branched off spiritual paths people go in search of.

I completely agree with you. When I first started following Buddhist culture, I believed that marijuana was good for getting your mind calmed. But the more I researched and practiced it, the more I realize and still am realizing that my mind needs to be completely free of all disturbances and intoxicants to fully achieve the uplifting that I want from Buddhism.
It angers me that people are so ignorant that they feel the need to bash on people who actually follow Buddhism, or any spiritual belief or religion, because they feel threatened. If they say they are so opened minded then why don't they open their minds up to some research on the subject before going off and trying to criticize people based on their beliefs and opinions. Also, aren't open minded people supposed to see that everyone is entitled to their own opinion? That is the way I've always thought of it.
In my opinion, the people that were agreeing with the poster of that article were just ignorant hippies who just wanted attention, and don't seem very open minded at all. They probably just said it to make themselves look "cooler".
(I hate that word.)

Those are just my thoughts/me venting about how much that upsets me. People taking my own beliefs and turning it into something it clearly is not.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but your right about some needed to get their facts straight.

While you must use critically thinking all the time to make sure you are accurately discerning between disinformation and actual truth, we have to realize that our perspective in the third dimension is limited and there are things possible on the higher dimensions that are perceived as impossible from the third.

[Deusdrum]

Originally Posted by HBuck72

One of the things that has been bothering me lately with the new age/spirituality/etc. culture, is the lack of critical thinking. I am not necessarily talking about any one person in particular, or even this forum in particular, but just my overall experience over the past decade.

It seems that there are always new bandwagons to jump on whether it is a new conspiracy theory, meditation trend, guru, etc., The problem, at least for me, is that when someone critically questions the validity of these new claims/movements, or demands proof, they are immediately attacked for not being “open minded” or “compassionate enough”.

To give one example, I had an acquaintance recently post an article stating how important marijuana is to Buddhism. Of course you at the end of the piece you had several marijuana afficionados give the obligatory, “way cool” “awesome”, etc. statements. Then several Buddhist oriented people (including myself) chimed in that he was off his rocker, and demanded some sources for his information, because taking any kind of intoxicant/mind altering drug is against the 1 of the 5 precepts of Buddhism. Therefore, there may be fringe groups who use marijuana, but as a whole any kind of intoxicant (even including alcohol) is discouraged. Almost immediately those of us who demanded actual proof for the claims, or back up sources, were attacked by other people as being mean, self-centered, too mainstream, not spiritually advanced enough, too closed minded, etc.

I for one am all for being open minded and compassionate, but I also think that you should apply the God given gift of reason and critical thinking to some of these claims. I have seen far too many people get burned and turned off of spirituality completely because they bought into a fad, or followed a charlatan guru, where just a little critical thinking and fact checking would have saved a lot of pain and grief. To me, poking holes in potentially bogus fads and claims in order to expose them as false, and to help people not run down the proverbial rabbit hole, is no different than me telling someone not to walk into a burning building. If the claims are true, they should be able to stand up to critical thinking, and be able to offer some proof.

Thoughts? Experiences with this?

This is a very good and also important point i think that you bring up. I believe there are those who a) get lost a little in the projection/fantasy realm to some degree, though that is just my opinion and i certainly don't want to be condescending to anyone's beliefs, but i think some of it is suited to a person's desire of what such and such should be like, as in the marijuana smoking buddhists in you example above.

Then there are b) those people who knowingly and willingly take advantage of and manipulate people such as phony psychics etc. which is another story and disgusting, and a very good reason why people should excercise their critical thinking skills.

I think skepticism, kind of like God, has become a dirty word, but there are those who are 'debunkers' that are just as fanatical and closed minded as the blind believers in whatever it may be, and that is not what skepticism is. Skepticism allows you to question, examine and discern for yourself whether something is true or not. Or what value it may have. It is not necessarily true or of value just because you want it to be. It is not necessarily untrue or meaningless just because you wish it were not so.

peace ~

Mattie..
"Be an open minded skeptic. Have the flexibility to allow for that which may seem fantastic."

Oh i like this.