Loss of freedom.

[running]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am not sure why you said the first sentence. I just be myself, I had no feeling in me you were standing in my way. Perhaps that came from your own feelings in some way in all this?


When the mind is empty its empty and open to everything. The movement is you moving with everything. How you move is what you create yourself to be in that movement as you show yourself more in this sharing.

Where it goes or ends is entirely your choice.

Standing in your way. Because your going to do the same thing over and over and over. Turn it into something to figure out. So you ask me why? Thats why. Lol. Its an endless circumstance. So do what you will.

[naturesflow]

double post oopsy.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by running

Standing in your way. Because your going to do the same thing over and over and over. Turn it into something to figure out. So you ask me why? Thats why. Lol. Its an endless circumstance. So do what you will.

It appears your putting words where their are none now. What was is not now in this moment.

I find your detachment rather amusing when you don't know, something and try to make it into something.

But don't be fooled by amused. Its just my feeling for this moment.

I mentioned this because Baile took offense to me feeling amused in myself in the face of what was happening in another thread. Bit like your joy thread moment I had, where I felt happy, he was feeling something unrelated to my feeling.

[naturesflow]

Dont let me stand in your way -running

See it came from your fingers.

[naturesflow]

I like figuring things out for myself. SO there!!

[running]

.......ok......

[Gem]

[quote=naturesflow][quote][quote=Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Right. I see now. The breath is usually the thing for me that changes things in heated situations. Face to face is more difficult because your aware of everything in the experience coming in. But I am with this whole *becoming conscious of my breathing in the midst of unsettling experiences. Fear response often causes shallow breathing, so I am aware of myself through old patterns in this way. Shortness of breath, tensing and holding on. Forgetting to breath.

Yep, the way the body draws air changes according to what is being thought, the emotions, the physical activity... everything.

Before we knew molecules like oxygen and carbon dioxide, breath was God's life force. For example I quote: "then God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7).

In Hinduism, prana life force enters the body as the breath.

"Look to this day,
for it is life, the very breath of life.
In its brief course lie
all the realities of your existence"

The Sufi Fakr, "The breath is the current which is established between all planes of man's existence."

From Buddhism (I just found this on http://minddeep.blogspot.com.au, and think it's cool)

"just know the quality of your breath. Breathing is used as a reference point, that makes it easier to see what the mind does. Also because the attention goes to breathing, one is starving the distractions."

Yes I have caught myself in the midst of overwhelm in this way. I didn't like it, and found myself fearing it in the beginning each time I reached that point.The whole feeling of losing control emotionally would arise. And I had to look more closely at that end point and see exactly what I was afraid of feeling. If I think about this experience. It was the beginning of unfolding my fear of feeling too deeply and that I would lose control and go mad or crazy. It was like the edge of the cliff and I didn't want to fall down and crash. My mind convinced me it was a no go zone. "You wont come back if you go there" thinking..:)

In my case, I see there isn't a step to let go... it is a let go of all and forever in one instant, like a line that is crossed and with no return. According to Gem at least, until one crosses that one into the realm of no control, their life is, from a most fundamental level, driven by fear.

Yes that song for sure..lol. That is a great story and one that highlights something really important in how I and I have noticed you also, often share, that it is all fine and dandy in certain scenarios, but put yourself in the thick of things in so many real to life situations, everything shifts to show you, how you feel and how you react. Each real life experience quite unique but always offering you a reflection to open deeper, become aware of more in our own attachments, sensations, discomforts related to ones balance in everyway.

Everything in life comes along to give a person one drop of insight. I remember I told you the story of my meditation with a pesky fly as my companion. A hilarious scenario, if you can imagine it, but even an insect is a guru... I call him Flyji hahaha.

You have offered something important for me. I see something I can now focus on more aware of myself in this way your showing. I relate to feeling like I had those fragments big time. I used things outside of me to compensate and disassociate. It used to drive others who felt complete a little nuts in how I would associate myself in this way. Now that I look back it was quite strange but obviously an important survival mechanism to manage myself, whilst not being able to enter into my fears. In some ways I guess the whole dissociation and association then came into this as one source. Where I dissociated in feeling, I had to create something to make up for what I couldn't associate with in myself, it was playing out in some form, yet disowning and creating it into something else made it ok and not have to enter into it. Validating it as an external matter, allowed me *Space* within to manage myself. A shallow breathing space, because I wouldn't breath fully into the depth of my being at that point.

For me the psychology of it was, as I went through life, I abandoned parts of the real life formed personality and assumed a pretend parts instead (out of fear and out of needing to be accepted and all that), but the real life one wasn't gone, it was still there in the place and time I left it, but was lost. I found it, and there was a lot of hate and anger and mistrust between this part of me and that. Sometimes now, I fragment in a natural way to have a conversation with myself, to make plans and decisions etc, and I don't know, this me talks with that me, like a little conference with myself. The parts care about what the other parts want and are in a unity under trust as parts of the same personality. 'They' also represent different kinds of needs, so to me, a decision is more like an 'inner agreement'' where all 'parts' are getting what they need... something like that.

Yes being with it. Full presence. How you describe it here, hits home in me how it can be done in the more difficult aspects of life. I suppose this is what many term as complete surrender. Staying present with yourself complete and with what is occurring around you or what you are participating in and not letting the mind dictate the cause and effects.

Yep. It's not being compelled by the sensation. A sensation of 'hunger' is not a 'desperation for food', the sensation of sex drive isn't 'sexual frustration'. These is no need to quell this and evoke that... How it can it move and be still all at once, I don't know. The dream-man and his sight.

You know I had a good reflection one time in a man who was able to do this. He is a very well respected man in everyway of himself with many people. At the time quite a few years ago, I kind of felt like he was *unmoving* in his presence. it felt really odd to me. I had just opened fully with clear channels flowing for myself, when I was hit with this. In some ways this *unmoving* nature scared the life out of me. I was struck in reflection in such a way, I was completely shut down. I just couldn't relate at all. I felt an instant blockage occur, almost like a closing down. I couldn't push through, I tried but the emotions were holding me down. Now I see from this space I am practicing now more freely, how it can appear and be translated in reflections from others who are not able to associate to this state of being, or like myself stirred to such an extreme level in me, much like the lotus seated man you described.
I was able to find space to let go, away from it, but while in it, it scared the life out of me.. Seriously it was one of my most difficult moments in life to feel how that felt and let go of what was holding me down and blocked in myself from what he was reflecting. It was what feeling *No fear* to be present with another who could stay present in this way felt like. This was my unfinished self in hiding I hadn't let go of. Scared of my own stillness, scared of my own silence, afraid of exposing my most vulnerable aspects of self to myself and another.

Well put, and it sounds deep, and really, to be able to actually stop and feel things properly without 'moving' (usually people feel like that have to do something) is a really deep thing. In the meditation there is a 'not doing', which means not trying to change anything, but just to be, and let everything arise, change, then pass away. People might ask me, oh this or that happened, what should I do, and I'm like, no worries, it won't last long. To actually be there with it without any aversions to it, without any desire that it should be different, none at all... and let it be 'as it is'... is to me, the definition of 'let it go'.

We usually speak in terms like 'let it go' or 'accept' and so on, but to me these still imply a doer who lets go or accepts. Who accepts or lets go.? Things are happening. It's a fact. It happens. This is where I think J. Krishnamurti expresses it well as 'a choiceless observation'.

You hardly ever ramble, that would be me more often than not.. lol. yes I get it now. You have given me a clearer picture of this in sharing openly here.

The reason I say I ramble is, I can go into quite a lot of detail because I sat on a mat for so long. You know, when you're silent for that long, you end up with a lot to say. hahahaha.

Permission to feel it all comes to mind. I am fine and can hold myself with probably ninety five percent, that five percent is really some aspects that challenge me to go deeper. It is a good challenge and one I am open to allowing to reveal and help me be open and flowing, not holding on in any way. The anger projection I mentioned wasn't about the anger, it seems my body is ok with anger, it was something else that arose in that angry projection. It was taken to a personal level, calling me something that I have never been called before in that anger. It hit a spot in my mindset about respect and politeness. Part of me later one realized it was about them, but their was something in me that I felt was conditioned around *cussing*. Cussing with a force. It kind of creates a bigger force in some ways, coming at me. I went into protection and defense mode and that was it..I

tried to stop feeling how this felt in me fully. For many people listening they would naturally assume, their own ideas of this and they will if they cannot self reflect fully. But I saw this as a gift to go deeper in being more present in myself and let go of more to hold myself more so in that silent awareness. I think this whole cussing issue stems from my mother's reactions to my father. His cussing was like a tornado erupting, and my mothers conditioned response always ringing as one with it..
Conditioned indirectly me thinks. Anyway I am aware of it now, so it was a good indicator for me to see more in myself.

Being clear in response even in the need to set boundaries will be acknowledged more so in my experience of this, when I am not holding on to anything personal in the emotional body. So naturally if I am it will reflect itself for me to see what's going on in me.

Oh, name calling is bad. I swear like an aussie labourer but never a name caller.

You need a defense mode in these things. Earlier you were talking about the fellow who was unmoving, which is good way, but when people come and try to move it there's is a risk they they can be broken against it. In the martial arts philosophy they know about these things, and a man can stand so solid that five others can not push him even one step. They have a novice level when the strength is shifting from the external muscular strength to the internal energy strength, and they say that is a dangerous time, because with the internal, if you think it will break, it will break. During that time the training continues into the quiet mind so the student doesn't lose his sensibility and kill someone. After a while they learn about the external energy for motion and internal energy for strength, and a person can just move the mind-body in one. Then it's like water, where nothing can 'compress' it, so it's unmovable, but it can flow and reshape as an aggressor meets their own force, while the martial artist exerts nothing.

Lines of force: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U6ZB7G4Q08

(see the masculine/feminine sign in the background)

Man that sounds like punishment of the utmost, but I understand that your process in this way, is much like I am trying to attain in real life reflections and yin yoga which is staying present with the body for longer periods than normal yoga. Not quite as intense as you are doing, but its a start for me in this walk I am now doing. I notice all the shuffling and mind chatter arise out loud, in the group. I remain silent and use their mind chatter and resistance talk, to still myself even more. So it serves me to go deeper in the midst of chaos around me in this way. I mostly remain focused, letting go into the sensations deeper in this way.

Oh that yoga with staying present with the body is awesome. Your silence is also an important part. Your intuition is doing wonders.

Wow, that sounds amazing. Sounds like paradise to me. All your inner work and conscious dedication, sounds to be paying off in great ways for you. Seeing the potential of self in ways you are showing here, is very inspiring

I was something new for me, but a deep lesson in impermanence, I haven't been back to that, but I learned something, and we'll see what happens next.

es I am noticing my poise of body shifting naturally more so and wants to show me how it wants to be balanced. Quite remarkable really how the body integrates in everyway of itself when we let go to let it do its thing.

That's a good way of explaining the intuition, too. I like it.

[naturesflow]

[quote][quote=Gem][quote=naturesflow]

breath was God's life force

In Hinduism, prana life force enters the body as the breath.

"Look to this day,
for it is life, the very breath of life.
In its brief course lie
all the realities of your existence"

The Sufi Fakr, "The breath is the current which is established between all planes of man's existence."

From Buddhism (I just found this on http://minddeep.blogspot.com.au, and think it's cool)

"just know the quality of your breath. Breathing is used as a reference point, that makes it easier to see what the mind does. Also because the attention goes to breathing, one is starving the distractions."

Really important awareness you have offered here.

In my case, I see there isn't a step to let go... it is a let go of all and forever in one instant, like a line that is crossed and with no return. According to Gem at least, until one crosses that one into the realm of no control, their life is, from a most fundamental level, driven by fear.

]

Got it, yes.

Everything in life comes along to give a person one drop of insight. I remember I told you the story of my meditation with a pesky fly as my companion. A hilarious scenario, if you can imagine it, but even an insect is a guru... I call him Flyji hahaha.

Absolutely..lol..cute name.

For me the psychology of it was, as I went through life, I abandoned parts of the real life formed personality and assumed a pretend parts instead (out of fear and out of needing to be accepted and all that), but the real life one wasn't gone, it was still there in the place and time I left it, but was lost. I found it, and there was a lot of hate and anger and mistrust between this part of me and that. Sometimes now, I fragment in a natural way to have a conversation with myself, to make plans and decisions etc, and I don't know, this me talks with that me, like a little conference with myself. The parts care about what the other parts want and are in a unity under trust as parts of the same personality. 'They' also represent different kinds of needs, so to me, a decision is more like an 'inner agreement'' where all 'parts' are getting what they need... something like that.

I get this too. I suppose its what I call unified togetherness now in myself. Meaning I can flow in harmony more so with all those pieces once trapped in fear and leading the show. Now in integrating more so, I am aware of them but my unified awareness, leads the show more so..

Yep. It's not being compelled by the sensation. A sensation of 'hunger' is not a 'desperation for food', the sensation of sex drive isn't 'sexual frustration'. These is no need to quell this and evoke that... How it can it move and be still all at once, I don't know. The dream-man and his sight.

Yes the association we create and make in so many ways. Where as sensation can go deeper and reveal something more in the emptiness of itself. I guess it comes back to whether you allow the stillness to lead the movement, which incidently I practised today during a connection, I was engaged in for a long period today. The energy moving through both more balanced and aware, rather than quelling the whole space into a disruption and over engagement..

Well put, and it sounds deep, and really, to be able to actually stop and feel things properly without 'moving' (usually people feel like that have to do something) is a really deep thing. In the meditation there is a 'not doing', which means not trying to change anything, but just to be, and let everything arise, change, then pass away. People might ask me, oh this or that happened, what should I do, and I'm like, no worries, it won't last long. To actually be there with it without any aversions to it, without any desire that it should be different, none at all... and let it be 'as it is'... is to me, the definition of 'let it go'.

Yes I understand now on this side how this feels, the other side of being in it, required deep letting go. Again the whole fight or flight response being triggered in needing to do or move somewhere to cease it from being itself.
And I get this now too. Let it be-let it go. Just being and allowing everything to move itself naturally, which in the practice today, became effortless, I suppose you could say.

We usually speak in terms like 'let it go' or 'accept' and so on, but to me these still imply a doer who lets go or accepts. Who accepts or lets go.? Things are happening. It's a fact. It happens. This is where I think J. Krishnamurti expresses it well as 'a choiceless observation'.

yes I understand this deeper in just reading all that you have presented here. The picture overall in my world presently and this here is helping me bring this together in such a way, that I can feel the whole notion of. Less is best in movement, while being everything in silence, allows everything to move by itself in the end.

The reason I say I ramble is, I can go into quite a lot of detail because I sat on a mat for so long. You know, when you're silent for that long, you end up with a lot to say. hahahaha.

I get it. I have had times where I have been in spiritual retreats, practicing lots of meditation and less talking interactions. And often coming out, I am like a bursting bubble of energy flowing effortlessly from the ground up..

Oh, name calling is bad. I swear like an aussie labourer but never a name caller.

Well I look now at myself in this picture and in all honesty that push sometimes although presented in ways many might deem as disrespectful and opening a core level of projection up, showed me how to let go of something that I was projecting into my interactions silently unaware. So as I let go and build respect of another's anger in this light, I support to end that in reflection.

You need a defense mode in these things. Earlier you were talking about the fellow who was unmoving, which is good way, but when people come and try to move it there's is a risk they they can be broken against it.

Ok I think I see what you mean here. In some ways I see that unmoving in stillness when another is moving in force that is seeking to push up hard against something not moving, did topple me. But then I was pushed upon in holding onto something in myself that he on some level knew would hit the spot. In typing now I suspect that point was a point of opening up my feelings honestly in that moment to myself, rather then outwardly moving. Allowing the water/emotion to settle the fire in me, rather than reacting to the fire already fired up in both. I can only consciously become aware of this issue in me to allow more in myself. And I will.
It did provide a valuable lesson once more in not making a moment in feeling be more than it is in that moment, letting my feeling moment arise in the moment not after the fact with stories of lacking or being something. It is what it is. Where as feeling would have supported to open up no reaction, just staying present unmoving, allowing myself to immerse fully into what I was feeling. It was a forceful moment to show me something important.

In the martial arts philosophy they know about these things, and a man can stand so solid that five others can not push him even one step. They have a novice level when the strength is shifting from the external muscular strength to the internal energy strength, and they say that is a dangerous time, because with the internal, if you think it will break, it will break. During that time the training continues into the quiet mind so the student doesn't lose his sensibility and kill someone. After a while they learn about the external energy for motion and internal energy for strength, and a person can just move the mind-body in one. Then it's like water, where nothing can 'compress' it, so it's unmovable, but it can flow and reshape as an aggressor meets their own force, while the martial artist exerts nothing.

This is really good to read. Very helpful.

Lines of force: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U6ZB7G4Q08

(see the masculine/feminine sign in the background)

I haven't watched this yet, but I will thankyou.

I was something new for me, but a deep lesson in impermanence, I haven't been back to that, but I learned something, and we'll see what happens next.

yes I can see this also.

That's a good way of explaining the intuition, too. I like it.

Thankyou so much, you have no idea how helpful this post of yours has been for me today.