Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 22-09-2011, 06:59 PM
Time
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbiO
A bit harsh on my part, I know, but learn to spell - or use a spell checker. A grammar checker would not be a bad idea either. It is a real chore trying to decipher what you post.

Understand, I am not a biblical literalist. I do not believe in - תורה מסיני - Torah from Sinai. I do believe in -תורה מן השמים - Torah from heaven, which has a different connotation, although some take it to mean the same thing. I know where the seams are. I know the limitations of using the Tanakh as history.

Having said that, however, the truth is that what you have posted betrays both your lack of knowledge regarding Judaism, the Jewish people and the history of both. Except for the fact that someone who knows even less than you do about Judaism might actually think you know what you are talking about, no reply would have been posted by me. I am mindful of the no win situation spelled out in Proverbs in answering such as this:
אל־תען כסיל כאולתו פן־תשוה־לו גם־אתה
ענה כסיל כאולתו פן־יהיה חכם בעיניו

B'shalom,

Peter

IM dislyxic, thanks for noticing!

Im sorry, like I SAID its really cut and dry, but thats is essentially, the history of judeism as most scholars see it proven with archeology. Theres proof of everything I said. Just because your a rabbi doesnt mean you know the entire archeological history of your people. To be fair that doesnt mean I know everything, but I know what many, many people who DO know say.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 22-09-2011, 08:08 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 383
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time
IM dislyxic, thanks for noticing!

Im sorry, like I SAID its really cut and dry, but thats is essentially, the history of judeism as most scholars see it proven with archeology. Theres proof of everything I said. Just because your a rabbi doesnt mean you know the entire archeological history of your people. To be fair that doesnt mean I know everything, but I know what many, many people who DO know say.

Just as I am aware of the limitations of relying on scripture alone, I am also aware of the limitations of current scholarship.

If you really read the literature you would realize how vast it is and yet just how little we know about certain things with any certainty and just how much disagreement there is within the academic community. Furthermore, you might be surprised at the ferocity of the debates between well respected, knowledgeable and experienced scholars in their fields. This is true whether the topic is the general history of the Jewish people, the development of its scripture or the development of the religion of Judaism.

B'shalom,

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 22-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Time
Posts: n/a
 
I never said it was stricly scholars did I? I never claimed the whole history, just the bits we know

The original jews came and amalgamated with the cannanites. And practiced paganism

The jews were down trodden - so they got rid of polytheism

The jews were down trodden by the Babylonians- so they got rid of the woman, and did almost everything opposite of the current pagan traditions of the area (with hints from other traditions, like the story of moses, and noahs flood (both from Babylonian texts), like have one god represent everything.

The jews were down trodden by rome - so they take more civs beliefs (not on purpose), add it to their own, and you get early very early christianity. No matter what, no old school rivalry or religious bias cant disprove pure fact.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 22-09-2011, 10:43 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 383
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time
I never said it was stricly scholars did I? I never claimed the whole history, just the bits we know

The original jews came and amalgamated with the cannanites. And practiced paganism

The jews were down trodden - so they got rid of polytheism

The jews were down trodden by the Babylonians- so they got rid of the woman, and did almost everything opposite of the current pagan traditions of the area (with hints from other traditions, like the story of moses, and noahs flood (both from Babylonian texts), like have one god represent everything.

The jews were down trodden by rome - so they take more civs beliefs (not on purpose), add it to their own, and you get early very early christianity. No matter what, no old school rivalry or religious bias cant disprove pure fact.

All right then, I would appreciate it if you would provide me with a list of the texts that you have read, be they books or scholarly publications, and the authors of those texts.

B'shalom,

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 23-09-2011, 06:22 AM
Yamah
Posts: n/a
 
What can archaology prove? They can prove what existed. That is all. They can then speculate on what happened and theorize on why it happened, but they cannot prove it.

Say they find and arrowhead next to a skeleton. They can prove that an arrowhead was next to a skeleton. They can speculate that the arrowhead killed the person. They can theorize that there was a conflict in the area, perhaps a large battle, and the only surviving evidence was this one skeleton - the rest being washed away by time. They would be wrong, because this person was a fletcher and he had a heart attack while at work.

What you have paraphrased are bits and pieces of archaological evidence (which matches up with biblical accounts) that have surrounding them lots of speculation and theorization.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 23-09-2011, 01:17 PM
Time
Posts: n/a
 
Peter - I think you will actually enjoy this video. Its probably the BEST history ive found, without it being a 12 hour university course.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565

Yamah - Archeology can prove many things, yet open up a plethora of other questions. Lets use your example of the arrowhead (good common example)

The first thing they would do is try to identify the age. This can be done a few ways. Carbon dating, in combination of how deep he was buried, what he was buried with, and pottery shards.

The second thing to do, is to determine the cause of death. IF there is no trauma, then they have to say that the arrowhead was something they added to the burial (like we put flowers ont he grave today)

They can see if there was any warefare, due to the skeletons lack of/apperance of trama, as well as other archeological evidence in the surounding area. IF there isnt other tools of war around in the same strata, then theyd have to assume he died of a natural death or even possibly poisoning (they can still tell that through chemestry)

They can aslo tell how old the skelleton was, and if it was male of female.

Now that you have the age and the area, you can find out exactly what civ its from. From there you can look up texts from that area, and others who have had contact with them, to see if there actually was a battle, see if there was sacrifices being practiced.

You have to remember, medical texts from the ancient world surivive, so we can use those to prove how he died.

BTW, everything is theory, even religions, because alot of the pagan traditions they are based off of, used a sort of scientific method, told by using alligories. Some are just more proven and accepted then others.

ANd once again, I paraphrased so i dont write a gigantic wall of text so its easier for people to read. All I said isnt as much speculation , as it is corrobarated with archeological evidence...

And yes, lots of that evidence proves some of the events in religios tecxts, because they were written during real events and times in real places by real people.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 23-09-2011, 01:35 PM
Yamah
Posts: n/a
 
To test your first point... In all of what you said, where is there proof that the Jewish people who entered canaan believed in polytheism? How do you find archaological PROOF for what an individual, or even a nation, believed?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 23-09-2011, 01:45 PM
Time
Posts: n/a
 
because every single civilization at that time only practiced polytheism according to quite a few texts from varied places.

And its quite "easy". Once again dating things found in the same layer of ground as the people/person, carbon dating it, and comparing evidence to known evidence.

For instance, they can tell celts practiced pagan beliefs, because of written history by the romans, andarcheological finds that are similar to other polytheistic civs. Observation helps here. Of course some are more speculitive then others, but if theres one type pf archeology that has been heavily practiced, its biblical archeology.

It also helps to have an understanding of the differences betwen monotheism and polytheism. Looking beyond your personal comfert zone and knowledge is the best way forward in ihistory
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 25-09-2011, 04:29 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 383
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time
Peter - I think you will actually enjoy this video. Its probably the BEST history ive found, without it being a 12 hour university course.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565

Time,

With all due respect a two hour video - one which I saw way back when - even with the supplementary material provided on the website, is not the same thing as reading the literature and does not substitute for studying the competing points of view and the ongoing debates.

Just one example. You put forth the claim that it was in Babylonia that Jews began to circumcise. While scholars conjecture that perhaps circumcision, as well as Shabbat observance, became more strictly followed as the community sought to maintain its separate identity, the separate texts that became the Torah and which contain the requirement to circumcise are commonly believed by scholars - with the exception of some in that small group sometimes referred to as the Copenhagen school - to all have been written prior to the Babylonian exile.

B'shalom,

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-10-2011, 11:02 AM
Yamah
Posts: n/a
 
"Of course some are more speculitive then others"
I am glad that you admit it.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums