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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #21  
Old 04-09-2019, 05:53 AM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
But what if animals, plants and insects are all in a state of natural Nirvana? If someone is an a state of Nirvana does dies that make them atheist too? In Nirvana, aren't they beyond a belief of God or anything else? We don't know what flora and fauna are actually conscious of and really there's no way of finding out, so what is any discussion of what they're conscious of based on?

If the flora and fauna are in a state of natural Nirvana, wouldn't that be a kick up the pants for Spirituality who puts them at the bottom of the consciousness league?

Depends what we mean by the word Nirvana. Some schools of esoteric thinking would say that the animal and plant kingdoms lack the faculties to enter higher states of consciousness. Hence the importance of human birth, and hence the rankings in the consciousness league.

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  #22  
Old 04-09-2019, 06:30 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Depends what we mean by the word Nirvana. Some schools of esoteric thinking would say that the animal and plant kingdoms lack the faculties to enter higher states of consciousness. Hence the importance of human birth, and hence the rankings in the consciousness league.

Peace
Yes, of course - this is self-evident, obvious (at least in spiritual/esoteric context).

Why waste time in the clever equivocation of meanings, and especially significances just to assert one's own confusion in order to prevail in discussion?

It's not just about 'rank' only, but what that rank represents in terms of the inherent limitations of the relative status, meaning: the available instrumental consciousness which determines the range of experience and possible REALIZATION.

~ J
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2019, 07:36 PM
ImthatIm ImthatIm is offline
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If a person goes on Hamblecha for their full commitment
there would be no doubt that plants and animals are
aware and obedient to the Wanka Tanka's and the Tree of Life.

They are not even aware of atheism.

Of course this is my opinion based on experience.

Edit: I would also include the Rock people, Fire people and Water people along with the Plant and Animal people.

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin
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  #24  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:58 AM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Depends what we mean by the word Nirvana. Some schools of esoteric thinking would say that the animal and plant kingdoms lack the faculties to enter higher states of consciousness. Hence the importance of human birth, and hence the rankings in the consciousness league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Yes, of course - this is self-evident, obvious (at least in spiritual/esoteric context).

Why waste time in the clever equivocation of meanings, and especially significances just to assert one's own confusion in order to prevail in discussion?

It's not just about 'rank' only, but what that rank represents in terms of the inherent limitations of the relative status, meaning: the available instrumental consciousness which determines the range of experience and possible REALIZATION.

Just to be clear iamthat, adding that I am 100% in agreement with your quoted.

~ J
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  #25  
Old 05-09-2019, 06:02 AM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir

Just to be clear iamthat, adding that I am 100% in agreement with your quoted.

~ J

Thanks for clarifying that, Jyotir. I appreciate your agreement.

Peace
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  #26  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:20 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Depends what we mean by the word Nirvana. Some schools of esoteric thinking would say that the animal and plant kingdoms lack the faculties to enter higher states of consciousness. Hence the importance of human birth, and hence the rankings in the consciousness league.

Peace
We are not conscious of what the animal and plant kingdoms are conscious of or not, and rankings in a consciousness league? I think that unless we have the consciousness of God himself, we have no room to judge and create rankings of any kind. It's not even certain that our consciousness is our own.

I guess this is what happens when the "Spiritual Adept" is in ignorance - as in what is known but ignored anyway.
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  #27  
Old 05-09-2019, 03:44 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
this is what happens when the "Spiritual Adept" is in ignorance - as in what is known but ignored anyway.
A perfect description of human life - the Spiritual Adept being the Master within, God, except conditionally unknown. But especially the part about ignoring what is known, as when ego becomes consciously aware of Spirit but resists and evades its call; a self-perpetuated schism if you will. If conscious and deliberate, that could be the very definition of spiritual complacency and dysfunction, some unfortunate suffering, - or even perhaps, the genesis of what we call 'mental illness'. But that's another thread.
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  #28  
Old 05-09-2019, 05:33 PM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
A perfect description of human life - the Spiritual Adept being the Master within, God, except conditionally unknown. But especially the part about ignoring what is known, as when ego becomes consciously aware of Spirit but resists and evades its call; a self-perpetuated schism if you will. If conscious and deliberate, that could be the very definition of spiritual complacency and dysfunction, some unfortunate suffering, - or even perhaps, the genesis of what we call 'mental illness'. But that's another thread.

I am such. Thank you for all your generous and kind clarifications on this forum and beyond Jyotir.
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  #29  
Old 06-09-2019, 11:53 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
A perfect description of human life - the Spiritual Adept being the Master within, God, except conditionally unknown. But especially the part about ignoring what is known, as when ego becomes consciously aware of Spirit but resists and evades its call; a self-perpetuated schism if you will. If conscious and deliberate, that could be the very definition of spiritual complacency and dysfunction, some unfortunate suffering, - or even perhaps, the genesis of what we call 'mental illness'. But that's another thread.
It's called cognitive dissonance, it's when people either can't or won't accept information that could potentially conflict with their current mindsets. People become attached the the definition of "Spiritual Adept" or the label of "Spiritual", which is often a reflection of their self perception, For others it's an alter ego or even an escape from a reality that they either can't or won't deal with and Spirituality itself can be the genesis of a mental health issue. Spirituality is not the genesis of Spiritual complacency and dysfunction, the potential for that to be created already existed in the dysfunctional mind. The Spiritual mind is no different to any other mind in its psychological or neurological functions and thinking that it is is dysfunctional. Those functions (including the subconscious) are at the root of Spirituality and are largely responsible for the Spiritual framework.

So you see, an understanding of the Jungian ego has indeed understandings for the Spiritual Adept because it underpins their Spirituality more than Spirituality itself. Sadly, the Spiritual Adept, because he/she chooses to ignore what is not labelled as Spiritual, has limited their consciousness and self-awareness willingly. Similarly, categorising consciousness and placing it into hierarchies are obvious signs that the ego the Spiritual Adept often considers non-existent within themselves is existent after all and is effectively 'steering' their Spiritual development. The Spiritual Adept is both Spiritual and Adept because of the Jungian ego.

Perhaps we could gain more wisdom if we simply admitted that, in a thread such as this and a few others, we're so far out of our boundaries all we have is mere speculation and no real answers other than ego and opinion. We're not going to really understand the Universe around us because we'd rather ignore the mechanisms that are largely responsible for the creation of our own realities.

You see, matter is emergent of consciousness as so many religious, Spiritual and scientific sources will tell you and consciousness that is emergent of matter - what Tolle defines as "object consciousness", which is basically form or anything to do with electrical and chemical processes of the brain/mind mechanism and including beliefs and knowledge - is backwards. Like the Spiritual Adept gaining knowledge and understanding via books, forums and YouTubes.

Perhaps what we need is a thread that gets back to basics.
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  #30  
Old 06-09-2019, 04:04 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
I am such.

If it's true for you then it's true for everyone.

There is no human being who doesn't embody this conflict as the origins are cosmic and we are a microcosm.
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