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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:05 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
as usual I look at what things DO. Ropes are for climbing, tieing, other things... e.g. they are a beneficial thing to be used. OTOH snakes aren't so much liked, and many people are even afraid of them. So if you were to mistake a rope for a snake you would possibly avoid it instead of using it to help yourself out? And depending on the situation that misunderstanding could be disastrous...

I like your take on it, very Tarotesque. Thanks for sharing.
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Too much intellectual pride and not enough intellectual beauty

To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.So even when the dark clouds gather you will be the light.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #12  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:13 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
Thank you for sharing this knowledge. I really respect what it says and it's useful too. I've heard of Patanjali of course and glanced at some of his stuff in the dark and distant past. He is a very respected teacher and his knowledge i would say echoes with the reverberations of his own culture and tradition and personal insights of course. Thank you very much for sharing, most kind. Namaste.

* in my original question i misspelled the word Allusion using the word Illusion instead. Apologies.
You are very welcome and as a contemporary of Patanjali, I am glad you also found my contributions to be particularly useful.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and your mispelling is forgiven. Namaste
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:22 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
Hi Joe Mc,

I had the occasion to use this "rope" analogy in the reference, below. Ironically, it just occurred to me that use of the words Rope or Snake, is really only useful if those who utilize them remember that the difference (and usefulness) of either becomes moot without understanding what they mean in context.

One person's "Rope" may not necessarily be another person's "Snake", right?

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...3&postcount=19

Hi Guthrio,

Thanks for your reply, i haven't had occasion yet to read the article concerning Christianity, i just skimmed through it. Do you think you have been found mixing up religious illusions ? lol and what might be the punishment in such circumstances ? Just joking, i was thinking of mixing metaphors or something like that, i don't really know what mixing metaphors means lol.

Anyways the parallel that im intuiting from initially reading your post is that the 'Eastern Mind' in terms of the Hindu tradition at least seems apt to deliver a short sharp shock to what we might call the 'Intellectual Mind'. So what we might call our 'Sinful Nature' in the Christian tradition is arrested momentarily through the use of an Allusion to point out our limited thinking or sinful nature.

Obviously the rope and the snake allusion doesn't quite fall into the Zen tradition especially the Rinzai school ...where questions such as the sound of One Hand Clapping or Show me your Original Face are meant to instigate in the seeker a shift of some kind.

So these allusions like the Snake and the Rope seem to me to have the flavour of arresting the egoic mind lets say in a way that Christian writings don't and are maybe not meant to ? But i can't help but take a saying like
Its harder for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle..., and there must be many more ..and see those sayings as Allusions which are meant to lead to a wider and different understanding ? Anyways Guthrio thanks for the opportunity to rant a bit lol...
Best Regards
Joe
__________________
Too much intellectual pride and not enough intellectual beauty

To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.So even when the dark clouds gather you will be the light.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #14  
Old 02-04-2019, 10:06 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Namaste.

The Rope vs Snake analogy was used to illustrate the Advaita Vedantic term for Mithya or Mithyatva (false perception) as being in a relativist distinction from the general term of Maya or illusion which was used at the time.

It is an analagous representation of how our conditioned biases (e.g fear) also known as vasanas, can distort the perception of reality (Brahman) through sensory cognition...also called karmendriyas.

Thus, we are not experiencing an "illusion", but a distorted form of reality...mithya (which gave rise to the English word, myth).

This tale later became extrapopated in the form of The Six Blind Men and The Elephant...showing how false perception (Mithya) will remain thus, no matter how many mithyavadis (ignorant people) are involved and how human beings are very proud in their arrogance with their ability to "know" things...and as sad as it is, for many, their ego still is unable to admit that the "snake" is really a "rope" even after being shown thus.

Excellent thanks for sharing. I like that word Mithya and the way you explain it's etymology. The allusion of the Six Blind Men and the Elephant I've heard but it's great that you point out about the 'many' side of it ie. no matter how many people get involved in trying to solve 'the problem' it won't make any difference. I saw an example of this recently on a tv show, ignorance literally enveloping the audience, like a fire spreading or something, strange to see. Thanks for mentioning the word vasana or vasanas, it's a fascinating term and concept and reality and i aught to read and study some more about it.

Recently i've come across the concept and concepts of Sravana Manana Nididhyasana. Very good indeed and useful to understand and realise. Would you know off hand when this concept was popularised if that is correct to say and by whom ? Thanks for sharing :)
__________________
Too much intellectual pride and not enough intellectual beauty

To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.So even when the dark clouds gather you will be the light.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #15  
Old 02-04-2019, 10:18 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Similarly, the human mind and sensory array will always display a selective preference towards a predetermined notion or held belief. This is called a confirmation bias.

For example, the first person will see the "rope" as a "snake" due to the fear vasana which alters perception through the karmendrias, so what is "rope" actually appears as "snake" and remains "snake" until such times as the person becomes convinced: "not snake...rope".

Now, in the dark (ignorance) a person may think the rope is a snake...another may come along who that person particularly dislikes and they will say "don't be ridiculous! that is not a snake, it is a rope!" however, because the person who sees the rope as a snake hates them, they will never believe it! yet, if a friend comes along and says the same thing, they will believe it without question...at what point did the truth change?

Some people will only believe what their guru says...what their teacher says...what their doctor says...

Now, I can (and often will) say exactly the same thing as their guru, teacher, doctor etc...but for some reason (I am still trying to fathom it) it is not true just because "I" said it...and yet, if anybody else who they love/respect says it, it tends to "gain truth" all of a sudden...was it "not true" before this? because when I point it out that I said exactly the same thing days ago, they deny that I even said it, which always means that they conveniently forgot I ever said it and NOT that I did not ever say it.

For "repeat offenders", I have covertly and secretly recorded these conversations...so when they are in full denial of either myself or themselves having said what they did, I play back the recording....then they will say that is not their voice! I must have found somebody else who sounded an incredibly a lot like them...I then resort to "voice recognition software" but they STILL deny it!

For such people, a snake is NEVER a rope, simply because they say so and anybody who believes differently can go to hell.

Which leaves me with one lingering question....why oh why do I seem to attract these types of people into my life? what bad karma did I do?

Reading very briefly and without much time. It's fascinating that you point out about the facts remaining the same but the message not being received, the message is delivered but the message is rejected because of the messenger ?

I can think of something i came across in Buddhism and it refers to clinging to rites and rituals. It is regarded as a fetter which binds the seeker. So perhaps in this context those peeps who will not hear.....That the Snake is definitely a Rope but will only hear it from somebody who is heavily involved in rites and rituals are as you allude to ignorant albeit in a very subtle way. This is not to deny the value and beauty and moksha of all rituals and rites and gurus :)

Hopefully you have been able to help these said persons and they come to you unconsciously for guidance and help. Obviously they don't always like what they hear such is the path of spiritual development i suppose. Thanks for sharing sorry if i was obtuse in any way or dismissive. Thank you once again.
__________________
Too much intellectual pride and not enough intellectual beauty

To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.So even when the dark clouds gather you will be the light.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #16  
Old 02-04-2019, 10:20 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
Excellent thanks for sharing. I like that word Mithya and the way you explain it's etymology. The allusion of the Six Blind Men and the Elephant I've heard but it's great that you point out about the 'many' side of it ie. no matter how many people get involved in trying to solve 'the problem' it won't make any difference. I saw an example of this recently on a tv show, ignorance literally enveloping the audience, like a fire spreading or something, strange to see. Thanks for mentioning the word vasana or vasanas, it's a fascinating term and concept and reality and i aught to read and study some more about it.

Recently i've come across the concept and concepts of Sravana Manana Nididhyasana. Very good indeed and useful to understand and realise. Would you know off hand when this concept was popularised if that is correct to say and by whom ? Thanks for sharing :)
Thank you for the response and your kind words. I was beginning to believe that my posts weren't showing up again and that the rope was a snake myself.lol

There are two factors which clarify the snake vs rope situation...light and time.

Light can be shone in that darkness, but it also takes time for the realisation to occur. For some, this may be instantaneous, for others, it may take many lifetimes.

As for your question about Sravana Manana Nidhidyasana, I have not encountered this personally, so I cannot offer assistance, however I am up for doing some reading and homework myself.
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2019, 04:35 AM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
... it does show us how things are mistakenly perceived.
Pure and simple.

And what I always say...Nothing you see with your eyes open is real.

(Great posts from all here!)
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"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...
Meditate unceasingly,
that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"
~~Lahiri Mahasaya, the guru of Yogananda's guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.
Better to PM me if you want me to see a post to me. I miss a lot.







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  #18  
Old 04-04-2019, 07:02 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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(Turns out it was a worm)
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  #19  
Old 04-04-2019, 08:19 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Pure and simple.

And what I always say...Nothing you see with your eyes open is real.

(Great posts from all here!)

Absolutely !
__________________
Too much intellectual pride and not enough intellectual beauty

To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.So even when the dark clouds gather you will be the light.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-04-2019, 04:48 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Color

Joe, Ok ,I'm going to make a confession here ...I'm finding it harder
and harder to carry on with people that actually think a chair is a chair...a tree is a tree.


I'm getting more like 'Lucy' everyday!
(Please, Everyone here on this thread esp, see that movie if you haven't!!)
__________________
.,
,
,

"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...
Meditate unceasingly,
that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"
~~Lahiri Mahasaya, the guru of Yogananda's guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.
Better to PM me if you want me to see a post to me. I miss a lot.







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