is eating fish really that bad?

[Evianna]

Do you think eating fish is bad? And what about sneaking in some dairy?

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Evianna

Do you think eating fish is bad? And what about sneaking in some dairy?

Hahaha. I don't think so but I'm not a vegan. It will ALWAYS depend who you talk to. Guess it depends on the real reason for the crusade your on. If it's to help the environment think about the pros and cons. If it's just because your peers are doing it. Go for it, have a piece of fish or a glass of milk. I won't tell. wine might be a better option, it's made of plants.

[Jainarayan]

Originally Posted by Evianna

Do you think eating fish is bad? And what about sneaking in some dairy?

You have to do what you feel is right for you. There is no one-size-fits-all.

I don't eat anything with mammary glands. That rules out all land and sea mammals (platypuses don't have nipples but they have mammary glands... lowest common denominator ). But I do eat fish and other seafood, and poultry (chicken, turkey, duck if I can get it). I'm not vegan, so I don't have a problem with dairy or honey or using animal products. Leather is questionable but often a necessary evil.

That said, there is a cognitive dissonance for me. I know that chickens and turkeys, stupid birds that they are, have a right to live. So do fish, probably one rung higher on the intelligence ladder than an amoeba. Yet, I don't know that I could go completely vegetarian and not eat any animals. It may be a cop out but I tell myself I'm probably Kshatriya from past lives, the ancient Indian varna ("caste") that includes warriors, law enforcement, societal protectors and guardians, and don't do well without eating animals.

So again, do what's right for you.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Jainarayan

.........
That said, there is a cognitive dissonance for me. I know that chickens and turkeys, stupid birds that they are, have a right to live. So do fish, probably one rung higher on the intelligence ladder than an amoeba. Yet, I don't know that I could go completely vegetarian and not eat any animals. It may be a cop out but I tell myself I'm probably Kshatriya from past lives, the ancient Indian varna ("caste") that includes warriors, law enforcement, societal protectors and guardians, and don't do well without eating animals.

So again, do what's right for you.

Did you know that the early gladiators were mostly vegetarian. No meat and they were big strong men, fighting for their lives.

As for fish being only barely above an amoeba, did you know that they have relationships, can have affection for one another and some even use tools (rocks to crack open shells to eat the critter inside). Doesn't sound all that stupid so once again, you're eating sentient beings who don't want to die.

Here's a cute little video of a parrot fish who obviously loves to play with his person and the description under the video says he waits at the corner of the aquarium closest to the door and gets all excited when his person comes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnE... index=52&t=0s

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by Evianna

Do you think eating fish is bad? And what about sneaking in some dairy?

Lol, that sounds like me. Do whatever feels right within yourself. The only thing with fish imo is the plastic issue. Micro plastic they ingest, then of course so will we. I've found a great alternative for milk to go on cereal and in my coffee. It's called Oatly whole. Not sure if that's available where you are. I try and buy organic dairy if poss.

[Altair]

Ethically, there’s no meaningful difference between mammals, fish and birds here. They all feel pain and pleasure. The diets that idolize cows but ignore fish are cultural, and not really based on animal ethics, but more along the lines of “we like cow milk therefor cow is highly “evolved”. Fish and crocs are bad, mmmkay?”. Humans tend to like mammals more because we are mammals.

If one is concerned about the environment and impact of diet, but still wishes to eat meat, then it’s best to eliminate at least beef (main cause of deforestation and takes up too much land) and fish. With fish, the biggest issues are overfishing and by-catch. Dolphins are declining because of that. Fisheries can’t be trusted and farmed fish creates problems too.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

Lol, that sounds like me. Do whatever feels right within yourself. The only thing with fish imo is the plastic issue. Micro plastic they ingest, then of course so will we. I've found a great alternative for milk to go on cereal and in my coffee. It's called Oatly whole. Not sure if that's available where you are. I try and buy organic dairy if poss.

I think the problem goes far beyond plastic because fish suffer too. Imagine yourself pulled under the water and struggling to get back to the air so that you can breathe. For fish, it is the opposite. Humans drag them up into the air and they can't breathe and it's like they're suffocating in the air because their gills can't get the oxygen that's all around them.

They even feel pain, fear and have some experience of joy and fun. Years ago, I came across the following, a video of a guy who plays with his pet fish and he says, she looks for him and comes to the corner seeking attention. It's actually pretty cute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BVMyfFhjW8

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by Debrah

I think the problem goes far beyond plastic because fish suffer too. Imagine yourself pulled under the water and struggling to get back to the air so that you can breathe. For fish, it is the opposite. Humans drag them up into the air and they can't breathe and it's like they're suffocating in the air because their gills can't get the oxygen that's all around them.

They even feel pain, fear and have some experience of joy and fun. Years ago, I came across the following, a video of a guy who plays with his pet fish and he says, she looks for him and comes to the corner seeking attention. It's actually pretty cute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BVMyfFhjW8

I shouldn't have used the word only.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Debrah

I think the problem goes far beyond plastic because fish suffer too.

So do all animals that are deliberately killed when humans need to eat food (domesticated or wildlife). With this topic of fish it's once again a matter of ecology, and not human projection of ''rights''. If it's about rights than the dolphins and the bears shouldn't eat fish too, as fish ''suffer'' at the hands of other animals as well.

Veganism conflates ethics with ecology/environment. As I've done volunteering for a number of environment and nature organizations over many years I've come across a fair number of vegans and this conflation and inability to see that the two (animal welfare and environment) don't always match is a painful show to watch.

This is about ecology, not ''suffering''. If it was about suffering than no human or animal should exist in this world because their breeding will continue to perpetuate suffering. So ask yourself if this is really about ''suffering'' or something else.

[Spiritual Mike]

Originally Posted by Altair

So do all animals that are deliberately killed when humans need to eat food (domesticated or wildlife). With this topic of fish it's once again a matter of ecology, and not human projection of ''rights''. If it's about rights than the dolphins and the bears shouldn't eat fish too, as fish ''suffer'' at the hands of other animals as well.

Veganism conflates ethics with ecology/environment. As I've done volunteering for a number of environment and nature organizations over many years I've come across a fair number of vegans and this conflation and inability to see that the two (animal welfare and environment) don't always match is a painful show to watch.

This is about ecology, not ''suffering''. If it was about suffering than no human or animal should exist in this world because their breeding will continue to perpetuate suffering. So ask yourself if this is really about ''suffering'' or something else.

The difference between a bear eating a fish and human eating fish are quite vast. The bear only intends to kill the one fish or enough fish to feed him and his family. He also likely has no real other options than fish to survive, unlike the modern human being who mostly who has options from the grocery store. So we can choose to try commit the least suffering possible.

Also the bear does not have trawlers which deplete the ocean of billions of sea life, including non target species. The bear also doesn't have factory farmed fish systems, where fish are crowded and suffer from not being able to move freely, similar to the lives of chickens and other creatures who cannot move in cages or highly crowded and dirty sheds in factory farms.

We also don't expects bears to be moral agents, but just because they can't doesn't mean we as humans shouldn't try to make considerate choices and try to commit the least amount of harm possible in our given situation.

For those reasons and more it is clear that there's a major difference between a wild animal hunting what they need for survival and humans mass breeding and mass producing animals for the purpose of eating them in absurd numbers and far far beyond what our actual need to eat them would be (I don't believe we actually need to eat them anyway and I'm doing fine as a vegan).