no need

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by davidsun

I agree (i.e. also 'see') with a lot of what you say (you 'see), Jonesboy.

But I wish to reiterate (in words) what the 'actions' and 'ex-press-ions' in the video clearly demonstrate: the critters did not have to meditate or experience silence to experience 'bliss' (or whatever one wishes to 'call' IT).

Like 'meditation' and 'being silent', my 'argument' (as you experienced my 'sayings') was/is meant to prod people get 'out' of their 'head' trips and 'into' their 'hearts' which, according the Gita at least, is where the Presence actually resides and lives.

Lip-service also will not get one there, I dare say!


Have a good day yourself!

The Heart has a couple of meanings depending on ones level. The heart chakra once it is opened is where people can think outside of themselves. They can think of others beyond their desires. With an open heart one also is at the stage where one can begin to feel energy.

At a deeper level the heart is a reference to Consciousness.

The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

The Heart of Siva is not a static or inert absolute, however. In fact,

the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition considers it to be in a state of

perpetual movement, a state of vibration (spanda)3 in which it is continuously

contracting and expanding (samkoca-vikasa), opening and closing

(unmesa-nimesa), trembling (ullasita), quivering (sphurita), throbbing,

waving, and sparkling (ucchalata). The intensity and speed of this move

ment is such that paradoxically it is simultaneously a perfect dynamic

stillness.4

The tradition states that the Heart is the enormous ocean (ambunidhi),

the ocean of light, the ocean of consciousness. The waters of consciousness

that in man are broken by countless polarizing and divisive waves (urmi)

may be easily brought to a state of dynamic stillness by the process of

immersion or absorption (samdvesa) in the Heart.

So yes, the first stage and the most important, is opening ones heart and thinking of others. Even later as the Buddha mentions to move beyond the bliss of higher stages one needs to think of others.

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realization as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samádhis.

[davidsun]

I have to confess, Jonesboy, that the 'erudition' in the quote you shared, for the most part at least, struck me as being no more than 'clever' 'sophistry'. And in relation to your words:

Originally Posted by jonesboy

At a deeper level the heart is a reference to Consciousness.

I have to let you know that came across as implying that LOVE and JOY (heart thangs) were a 'function' (or 'derivative' of) of DISCERNMENT and THOUGHT (i.e. 'CONSCIOUSNESS') IOW, that struck me (not that I am all-knowing, mind you) as not just being more 'sophistry' but an 'oxymoronic' statement at that.

Some definition to clarify how I use 'key' words here:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict.../consciousness

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophistry

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oxymoronic

I don't think a meeting of minds or hearts (or purposes) is possible between us at present - let's just leave it at that.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by davidsun

I have to confess, Jonesboy, that the 'erudition' in the quote you shared, for the most part at least, struck me as being no more than 'clever' 'sophistry'. And in relation to your words:

I have to let you know that came across as implying that LOVE and JOY (heart thangs) were a 'function' (or 'derivative' of) of DISCERNMENT and THOUGHT (i.e. 'CONSCIOUSNESS') IOW, that struck me (not that I am all-knowing, mind you) as not just being more 'sophistry' but an 'oxymoronic' statement at that.

Some definition to clarify how I use 'key' words here:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict.../consciousness

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophistry

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oxymoronic

I don't think a meeting of minds or hearts (or purposes) is possible between us at present - let's just leave it at that.

:) why would you look to Webster for spiritual meanings of definitions? That is like comparing apples and oranges.

Also, one always has thoughts, it is just the clarity of them that matters.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

:) why would you look to Webster for spiritual meanings of definitions? That is like comparing apples and oranges.

Just wanted you to understand how I was using these words.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Also, one always has thoughts, it is just the clarity of them that matters.

Gotto disagree with this is spades, sophisticated sleight-of-mind (in this case deceiving yourself only, IMO) 'wizard': cuz I think the quality (or 'nature' hence 'purpose', whether acknowledged or not) of one's thoughts have 'significant' consequences.

Thank you for the demonstration.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Just wanted you to understand how I was using these words.


Gotto disagree with this is spades, sophisticated sleight-of-mind (in this case deceiving yourself only, IMO) 'wizard': cuz I think the quality (or 'nature' hence 'purpose', whether acknowledged or not) of one's thoughts have 'significant' consequences.

Thank you for the demonstration.

:) I did not say that thoughts did not have significant consequences nor do I disagree.

I said the clarity of them is what matters.

Clarity is one of the aspects of the Primordial State in Buddhism.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action.

This goes back to the old debate, does a Buddha have a favorite tea cup. No, they are all perfect as they are. He may choose a bigger one because he wants more to drink without having to refill it. A smaller one for when he just wants a little to drink.

[running]

Davidson

bliss and silence is the way you help humanity from behind the scenes. it is contagious from person to person without effort.

bliss and silence is not through effort. effort is used to clear oneself to it. people wish so badly to suffer. your remarks seem to be of the sorf. or just short of understanding the experience perhaps.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by running

Davidson

bliss and silence is the way you help humanity from behind the scenes. it is contagious from person to person without effort.

bliss and silence is not through effort. effort is used to clear oneself to it. people wish so badly to suffer. your remarks seem to be of the sorf. or just short of understanding the experience perhaps.

Your meaning eludes me, running. I still think what I said earlier, which is that 'meditation' and 'being silent' are ways (i.e. means) whereby peeps may get 'out' of their 'head' trips and 'into' their 'hearts' which, according the Gita at least, is where the Presence actually resides and lives.

As far as "the experience" itself is concerned, as I indicated, what's in the video shows what I experience and so shared as my 'understanding' of what it is.

Your experience and related understand may of course be different.

[running]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Yes, bliss is at many stages along the path. One can get caught up in it and you have to let it go, move beyond the attachment of how good it feels.

That is one of the main lessons of Shine with Object, the very first stage in Dzogchen meditation. With the experience of silence comes bliss.

Energy can feel very blissful and people get very caught up in. Think it is all about sex and as you can see many people get caught up in astral sex.

All things you have to let go of, become non attached to.

As you keep mentioning each one is about beginners:



In Hinduism in the AV tradition one is to realize they are part of Brahman.



With regard to Buddhism your statement is along these lines as I said earlier.



This next quote is again talking about not being attached to the bliss.



Here is the Buddha talking about the Highest Reality.



In addition, talking about the bliss of the realization of Noble Wisdom



Switching traditions here is the great Abhinavagupta talking about what it is like to be One like Siva or to realize Universal Consciousness.



So, bliss is very much a part of the path. At first it is something one has to learn to let go of, to not get caught up in because at multiple stages along the path it can lead to dead ends or you could say you will get caught up in it and stop progressing but in all traditions the ultimate state is one of bliss.

Hope that clears up some confusion.

Also, it is important to note that if you are doing a practice and have been doing it for a long time and have no experience of bliss. You should examine your practice because as django has mentioned it is something that in many traditions beginners should experience.

thinking somehow wanting the medicine becoming the problem is a head scratcher. but i only know my experience. i have had experinces where wanting the medicine did make it harder to get the medicine. i would be interested to know how you or someone else got stumbled by enjoyment of the experience? how does that happen? did it obstruct you or someone else from it becoming you or them?

for me it really wasnt often it kept me from it. and usually wanting the medicine would bring me to it in various ways. i suppose it would seem strange for some people to see someone devote there life to the medicine to become the medicine. but you know as well that when it comes down to it. spending that time could become the most important time ever spent once one becomes the medicine. even the folks that live in caves in the Himalayas spending all there time for the medicine. once they become it have much more to offer the world without leaving their cave as they are behind the scenes transmitting bliss and silence to the world. i mention all that cause im trying to pin point where some people are perhaps having problems. those folks that go to the mountains could be doing something that is directly caused by desiring the medicine. so i mention that as another possibility for the idea.

[running]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Your meaning eludes me, running. I still think what I said earlier, which is that 'meditation' and 'being silent' are ways (i.e. means) whereby peeps may get 'out' of their 'head' trips and 'into' their 'hearts' which, according the Gita at least, is where the Presence actually resides and lives.

As far as "the experience" itself is concerned, as I indicated, what's in the video shows what I experience and so shared as my 'understanding' of what it is.

Your experience and related understand may of course be different.

looked like a pretty weird video to me. but thats not to say that gentleman isn't in it and somebody wished to express it by adding a bunch of spakles and what not being thrown around.

meditation and being silent is a practice many use.

bliss and silence once established can not be obstructed by thoughts, emotions, circumstances or anything. for that reason it encompasses all that one experinces.

i assume you have some understanding of the human nervous system. when the obstructions become clear enough spirit then has a pathway to the human nervous system. that system in conjunction with spirit is responsible for the experince of bliss.

since it becomes always and effortless one can live without ever fearing a lapse from it. reguardless of anything. in all emotions, all thoughts, and all circumstances. you truly become free in that sense. everything lives on. emotions, thoughts, desires, preferences, everything. its just all that is encompassed in bliss.

any more questions?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by running

since it becomes always and effortless one can live without ever fearing a lapse from it. reguardless of anything. in all emotions, all thoughts, and all circumstances. you truly become free in that sense. everything lives on. emotions, thoughts, desires, preferences, everything. its just all that is encompassed in bliss.

From your words, I gather that you have become 'grounded' in what I think of as The 'Presence' or 'Essence' (which I personally characterize as Love and Joy) of Life. That's great! I hope I got that right.

Originally Posted by running

any more questions?

I was only making statements, not asking questions.

I appreciate your further sharing of your experience and clarifying your understanding in said regard, running.