When people try argue against veganism

[Altair]

A ''reaction'' does not equate the experiences animals have. Animals have a central nervous system and are basically the same as us, we merely having a developed mind and self awareness. But physical pain is the same, and suffering is similar up to a point. From a spiritual point of view there is a hierarchy of sorts. At least until we are truly enlightened and no longer have a human body, we are subject to karmic 'law' and do best to stick to a diet without meat, as the killing of animals leads to suffering and pain. What other animals do with their less developed minds (or lack of it in some cases it seems) is not important. They have their roles and their places in nature, and we have our own unique human nature that allows us to grow. These thoughts are in accordance with spiritual teachings from religions that helped make societies more peaceful as a result and promoted spirituality. I think we should take it seriously.

[SapphireBlue]

Originally Posted by row37

No one on earth can live an ethical and healthy life if they are putting into their stomachs the burnt, dead bodies of tortured and murdered sentient beings, or eating any foods that contribute to the suffering of those beings. If they are taking that into themselves they will become sick, both physically and spiritually. That usually gets the point across, and it's true. Cause and effect. This is important big stuff, never forget that.

I suppose myself and hundreds of thousands of others are an exception to the rule then, being born with life threatening allergies to many vegan foods including plant foods.

[LadyMay]

Scientific studies show that plants feel pain but they just don't care. They don't feel it in the same way as humans and animals as they have no central nervous system. So they are kinda like "someone's ripping a leaf off me that's cool", lol.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by SapphireBlue

I suppose myself and hundreds of thousands of others are an exception to the rule then, being born with life threatening allergies to many vegan foods including plant foods.

You are an unfortunate fluke Sapphire. But 'flukes' do not make the rule.

It's a researched fact that the reduction of meat reduces the risk of early death for most people. That would explain why Texas Midland Memorial Hospital last year, decided that henceforth they would actively encourage all their patients and staff to go vegan. They not only include vegan choices in their hospital patient menus and their cafeteria, but they give classes on how to change your eating style.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

A ''reaction'' does not equate the experiences animals have. Animals have a central nervous system and are basically the same as us, we merely having a developed mind and self awareness. But physical pain is the same, and suffering is similar up to a point. From a spiritual point of view there is a hierarchy of sorts. At least until we are truly enlightened and no longer have a human body, we are subject to karmic 'law' and do best to stick to a diet without meat, as the killing of animals leads to suffering and pain. What other animals do with their less developed minds (or lack of it in some cases it seems) is not important. They have their roles and their places in nature, and we have our own unique human nature that allows us to grow. These thoughts are in accordance with spiritual teachings from religions that helped make societies more peaceful as a result and promoted spirituality. I think we should take it seriously.

I like the way you explain that Altair.

[SapphireBlue]

Originally Posted by Debrah

You are an unfortunate fluke Sapphire. But 'flukes' do not make the rule.

It's a researched fact that the reduction of meat reduces the risk of early death for most people. That would explain why Texas Midland Memorial Hospital last year, decided that henceforth they would actively encourage all their patients and staff to go vegan. They not only include vegan choices in their hospital patient menus and their cafeteria, but they give classes on how to change your eating style.

I wouldn't call myself and the many others 'flukes', but anyhow..

[Arjhan]

If anyone asks you the question about plants feeling pain, it's best not to answer. The question is meant to taunt, to back you into a corner as a question you can't answer to their satisfaction (no matter what research there is on the subject.) They do it because it makes them feel superior again and comfortable in their dietary habits.

When I can post links, I'll add a funny little cartoon about how people react. And there's always the bingo cards

[Arjhan]

Here's a funny little cartoon about how some people react to you being vegan:

[Gem]

Originally Posted by SapphireBlue

I wouldn't call myself and the many others 'flukes', but anyhow..

Deb merely points out anecdotes don't make quantitative data, so it's not useful for statistical analysis, mostly because anecdotal evidence is rife with confirmation bias, and people will deny hard factual evidence rather change their minds. Vegans are at least as likely to do that. For example, there are many papers in the literature which point out the health concerns due to vegan diets, such as calcium, D3, zinc and B12 deficiencies, and vegans tend to point out the poor health of meat eaters (statistically) ignoring confounding factors such as consumers of meat include almost all consumers of 'junk food', obesity, smokers, drinkers and other drug addicts, wheres these are statistically uncommon in the vegan population.

[Altair]

Excellent points Gem. In the 'western' world a lot of vegetarians tend to be highly educated people and are more likely to check labels and follow a healthy lifestyle in general. I don't know about vegans, only know a handful, but usually the same applies to them. Affluent people tend to drink less (or not at all) and are far less likely to smoke. So there's a bias and there are many variables..

As for missing vitamins.. I know people (that eat meat and fish regularly) that had (near) zero levels of vitamin D. Diet just isn't enough.. we all do best to take supplements (which are usually made from sheep wool so I don't know what vegans do about this!!). Either supplement or get enough sunshine, which isn't achievable for everyone.

But that is an interesting point and where I disagree with vegans anyway. I don't believe we should just remove all farm animals. I'm not against taking eggs, milking cows, or rearing sheep. I want the sectors to be non-intensive and look for ways that prevent/reduce slaughter of ''useless'' males and adult females that are past their usefulness. There's plenty of ways, but in order to get there animal agriculture must be ''de-intensified''.. Supporting organic dairy farmers isn't perfect but it's a small step..