Wicca and Deities

[Shalimar]

I’m reading the book “Wicca by Scott Cunningham” from what I gathered online, it is “the” book to read if you want to know about the Wicca path. Now, the problem with books is that you can’t interact and ask questions…When I read the chapter on Deities some questions rose up.

I could relate to what he says to a certain point, like for me, yeah, you commune with God in the nature, “living in nature makes every moment a ritual…communicating with animals, plants, and trees…”, “the Goddess and God”, until…. “When envisioning the Goddess and God, many Wicca see them as well-known deities from ancient religions.” Then, he goes on listing the names of diverse Gods and Goddesses, but he excludes from his list “Yahweh”.
Isn’t He also the personification of God? Why can’t He be included in the Wicca path?

“The Wicca acknowledges a supreme divine power, unknowable, ultimate, from which the entire universe sprang….personified into 2 basics beings: the Goddess and the God."

Though “Yahweh” has often been misrepresented, The Hebrew Scriptures give a “picture” that for me fit with “Creator and God”. Some even say that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures is actually not just “The Father” as tradition proclaims, but “Father God and Mother God” and that together with their Son (known as Master Yeshua who took flesh among mankind) they created everything. This is the God and Goddess that I relate to, and this is what visibly makes me stand out the Wicca path (and Christianity, Judaism probably too...)
Even if for many other things I’m finding out in the end, that without knowing the Wicca or calling myself a “Wiccan”, I have been walking on that path. In other words, from what I read on the forum (to quote just few recent threads “born a Witch, being a Witch, I am a Witch”), the “shoe” fits pretty well.

Now, don’t get me wrong, this thread didn’t originate from the need to attach myself to a certain group; like some Christians who hook up with a certain denomination and will do everything by the “book” of that denomination because they are afraid of being rejected by relatives or friends (I’m not “picking” on Christians, God knows I have dear friends and relatives who are Christians. I use them as example because I know about them).
I don’t “need to be part of a group” to feel good about myself and my path. Moreover, I’m what some call “a free bird, a free spirit”, so if one would tell me “Sorry, but to be a Wiccan you must personify God the way we do and pick one among those listed in S. Cunningham book”, I’d just say “No, thanks”, because my spiritual path is part of who I am and I can’t be and do not desire to be someone else.

I am asking the question because what I read puzzled me, as the impression I’ve got was that the Wicca path isn’t locked up in a box like the mainstream religions; so it would not make sense that on the subject of God, one could not choose to relate to Yahweh/Father God and Mother God.

In closing I want to say that I respect anyone’s spiritual path and that my inquiry is sincere, with the goal of understanding Wicca and void of any prejudice.

So here I leave the floor to all of you who are walking the Wicca path!

Peace

[norseman]

Just want to point out that Scott Cunningham was American and Wicca is British, steeped in British heritage and culture and originating out of British Traditional Witchcraft - that's all I have to say on that subject

Now to deities - The Lord and Lady, the Lady often seen as The Triple Goddess i.e. Maiden, Mother, Wise Woman. In my opinion, bringing in every pantheon under the sun is not a good thing, and is a source of amusement in some pagan quarters.

In fairness, I should add that I do not follow wicca. I am of the ancient tree of which wicca is just a new branch. My deity is simply Mother Earth.
It is also only fair to point out that there are major differences between UK and US wicca.

Originally Posted by Shalimar

I am asking the question because what I read puzzled me, as the impression I’ve got was that the Wicca path isn’t locked up in a box like the mainstream religions; so it would not make sense that on the subject of God, one could not choose to relate to Yahweh/Father God and Mother God.

One of the principles of religions in general is that they have a system of belief that one must accept in order to identify with it. Wicca is, originally, a initiatory mystery religion centered around a goddess & god (who do have names in traditional covens, but their names are only revealed to initiates). Scott Cunningham is one of the founding fathers of modern Neo-Wicca that's based off more exoteric interpretations of Wiccish beliefs and practices, but it's a slightly different creature from traditional Wiccan sects.

You don't HAVE to believe in his interpretation. His writing is not reflective of all of Wiccadom. Take his book as an experienced opinion, not as Holy Writing.

Also, it's not very wise to equal all conceptions with a father deity to Yahweh. There are many patriarchal gods who are definitely not Yahweh.

[Shalimar]

Originally Posted by Animus27

Also, it's not very wise to equal all conceptions with a father deity to Yahweh. There are many patriarchal gods who are definitely not Yahweh.

Yes, you're right I read about other father deities. I said "Yahweh" because this is who I relate to. In other words, He is the one for me..

So from what you and Norseman said S. Cunningham book is not "The" book explaining Wicca as some say. I didn't know about the fact that Wicca originated in UK and that the US didn't adopt the path exactly as it is over there, like Norseman said. Thanks for all these info

To go back to my question, is Yahweh God incompatible with the US version of the Wicca path (as at least some who follow in S. Cunningham footsteps visibly pick and choose in a Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses) and if so, why?

(please, don't limit yourself to the question, if you have some to share about your path like Norseman and Animus27 did, thanks to write about it. I am very much interested in knowing more about this path)

Peace

Originally Posted by Shalimar

To go back to my question, is Yahweh God incompatible with the US version of the Wicca path (as at least some who follow in S. Cunningham footsteps visibly pick and choose in a Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses) and if so, why?

Well, is there a particular reason why you wish to identify Yahweh with the Horned God of Wicca? The worship of Yahweh has been a very exclusive one throughout most of it's history. That shows that he might not like sharing his position with other gods, from my POV anyway

But ultimately, in a duotheistic or polytheistic theology there is little prohibiting someone from using Yahweh as a name for the god in Wiccan religion. It's just slightly unusual given his tendency to be a jealous god, and the fact that new Wicca movements embrace various pantheons and gods.

ETA: Scott Cunningham is a well respected author in many Wiccan and Neopagan circles, but his works are hardly exhaustive or definitive. They are more like a stepping stone, from a particular viewpoint. No religion can be adequately summed up in a single book. So keep reading, cross reference and you'll get a good handle on what Wicca is about as long as you keep exploring and learning.

[norseman]

Shalimar, I will share what I know about the founder of Wicca - Gerald Gardner who was British. A fact that is often glossed over is that he was an ordained christian priest.

Gardner was a complicated person. He did invent what is now 'Wicca', although he spelt it with one c. He threw it together as an amalgam of Freemasonry, Golden Dawn, Qabala, Rosicrucianism and Aleister Crowley's teachings, as well as the practical stuff from the New Forest Coven.

Dorothy Clutterbuck was long thought to be an invention of Gardner, but intensive searching has unearthed her Birth Certificate in the New Forest area.

This Coven is reputed to be the one which (with the blessing of the Powers that Were) performed ritual to stop the Invasion of mainland Britain by Hitler's troops during WW2. One member of the Coven died during this ritual, (whether by natural means or as a sacrifice nobody knows). This was still at a time when the Witchcraft Act was in force, it was not repealed until 1951, and the celebrated medium, Helen Duncan ,(erroneously called Britain's last Witch) was the last person prosecuted under that Act.

Wicca was Gardner's attempt to bring witchcraft into the open, in a ritual form which would be acceptable to the masses.

Witchcraft itself, the Craft of the Wisewoman and Cunning Man, is as old as the hills themselves, being shamanistic in origin, but Wicca is 'Modern Witchcraft', and has little similarity to it's ancient forebear. There are wisewomen and cunning men still, but they tend to exist in the country rather than towns, quietly doing what they have always done.

Gardner himself was a paradox, he was an ordained Priest of one of the obscure CelticChristianChurches, and a confirmed Naturist, a member of the naturist club Spielplatz, which is still active today and has a website! He was friends with many of the occultists of the day, notably Philip Ross Nichols, (founder of the largest Druid Order in the world) who was also a Spielplatz member, and an ordained Priest of another CelticChurch. Together these two established the current Festival Cycle that Pagans now use, (It is a combination of the Agricultural Festivals which the Wiccans used, Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnasadh, and the Solar observances of the Druids {Solstices and Equinoxes}).

Many of the rituals that Coven Wiccans currently use are lifted almost verbatim from Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism and Qabala. Coven Wicca seems to be on it's way out, many Wiccans nowadays following a much simplified Book of Shadows published by many authors today and the wisdom is greatly watered down from Gardner's original. Very few Wiccans nowadays celebrate skyclad, as is stated in the Charge of the Goddess, in fact the Charge itself has lessened in importance nowadays.

With the amount of information currently available, Wicca is becoming diluted from what it used to be, becoming mixed with knowledge from other Paths. When there are groups around, they are nearly all Working Groups of Solitaries who like to get together occasionally.

[Shalimar]

[quote=Animus27]Well, is there a particular reason why you wish to identify Yahweh with the Horned God of Wicca? The worship of Yahweh has been a very exclusive one throughout most of it's history. That shows that he might not like sharing his position with other gods, from my POV anyway


Good question Animus27! Actually I am not trying to identify Yahweh God with the Horned God of Wicca. Especially as before I read what you and Norseman told me I only knew what S. Cunningham says in his book and visibly for him there are many Gods to choose from to represent The God and the Goddess (which he also says can be nameless if you feel that using ancient Gods and Goddesses is limiting). So we are really talking about The God and The Goddess, Creator of everything, “the supreme power personified into 2 basic beings: the Goddess and the God” and this is what brought up my question.
My reaction to what I read in his book, when I think of it, only came through my feelings...I love Yahweh God and it didn't seem fair to me that He/She was excluded from the list, like if He/She could not even be an option....Knowing that this book we are talking about is supposed to be “a guide” and is recommended on the internet as being a good book for those who are beginners, those who don't know anything about Wicca. Thus, it didn't seem right that a newcomer would not have also the option to choose Yahweh God, instead of the others.

And yes, you are right Yahweh God demands exclusivity in your heart, but what if a newcomer didn't want to have several Gods? Not everyone desires to have several Gods. In that case, choosing Yahweh God would not have been a problem.
When I was a teen I looked into the Roman and Greek pantheon of Gods that we studied in school, then I looked into the God of the Hebrews, and I ended up afterward building a relationship with Yahweh God and had no problem with the fact that I could not go to other Gods at all. At first, meaning about 30 years ago I turned to the Catholic Church to find answers about God. Thus, I was taught that Yahweh God was: The Father the Son the Holy Spirit but not 3 still one and I was taught to add Mother Mary to the equation; and that it was just fine, God would not be jealous in that case...

Well, since then many "waters passed under the bridge" and now, I see it that Yahweh God can really be: Father God, Mother God. So that is why I thought it was somehow similar to the Wicca concept stated in the book as he was talking about The God and The Goddess....and I say ”Father God and Mother God”, not much difference after all…

I've read that the Catholic Church had centered everything on the Father, Son, even though they knew that there was Mother God. But as they had chosen to have an exclusively male religion with only male leaders, they could not let people know about Mother God...afterward they felt bad about it, so they promoted Mother Mary...

Now about what you said "he might not like sharing his position with other gods" I agree that Yahweh God wants exclusivity in your heart, but He/She would have been totally OK to be included in the list because from what I read in the Hebrew Scriptures, Yahweh has always been up for a challenge against other Gods, even when those challenges are brought up by men. From what I read, Yahweh is always up to prove that He/She are The Creator, The God above all Gods….

Peace

[Shalimar]

Originally Posted by norseman

Shalimar, I will share what I know about the founder of Wicca - Gerald Gardner who was British. [/font]

Thanks Norseman that was very interesting! One thing I don't grasp:
What do you mean by "the Charge" of the Goddess? I'm not familiar with the term.

Thanks!
Peace

[norseman]

"Charge of the Goddess" and the later "Charge of the God" was verse/prayers devised by Doreen Valiente, one of Gardner's associates. Some wiccans still hold to them but most [in UK] don't.
Check in here [loads of stuff !] under Book of Shadows.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/index.htm

Just one comment about The Lord and The Lady - compare this with Yin and Yang, a perfect balance !

[Shalimar]

Thanks Norseman I checked out the link and yeah, that's a well of info

If not on another thread, see you in class!

Peace