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06-04-2013, 10:52 PM
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Has information changed in value?
Just a question that comes to mind when pondering how things change.
Consider how in the past fifteen years or so, internet technology has revolutionised how we access, gather, share, use and store information, (as well as other things like music, films).
My question is: Is information less(or more?) valuable in the present day than it used to be? (say prior to the internet, for now, but maybe go further back in time if you want..)
A related question: How has this change (as you see it) changed a typical person's level of happiness/contentment etc ?
Plus any other related thoughts you may have on it...
edit:
I'm particularly thinking of information as it relates to or converts into knowledge. Actually, I was going to use the word 'knowledge' at first but then thought 'information' would be better..
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07-04-2013, 05:15 PM
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Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,087
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Quote:
My question is: Is information less(or more?) valuable in the present day than it used to be? (say prior to the internet, for now, but maybe go further back in time if you want..)
A related question: How has this change (as you see it) changed a typical person's level of happiness/contentment etc ?
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I think that there is less ratification of received knowledge...and more questioning and faster cycles of turnover.
There is a greater need and expectation that each person will need to engage and decide for themselves what the information means.
I think this puts a lot more responsibility on each person to take responsibility for their own thoughts and responses and behaviours. But with that, there is also, as you hint at, a growing personal awareness that happiness and contentment have very little to do with information per se, and everything to do with our perspective and our priorities, and how we interact with the world based on that.
I am reading a book (slowly) by a prof of philosophy, a woman named Susan Neiman, called Moral Clarity: A Book for Grown-Up Idealists. There is a bit on the story of Job, who did everything right with right intention and who was not rewarded in his lifetime. From biblical times till now, the response of society was that he must have somehow earned or deserved his fate. We judged his character based on how he fared in life...which to the modern mind and heart feels very wrong.
From the time of the enlightenment, she notes, we have separated our judgment from what actually happened to Job -- so we no longer say he must have done something to deserve all this misfortune. (Whether he agreed to it pre-incarnation is different -- that is not a moral judgment of his character). Instead most of us would now agree that life is often not fair and our reponse would be one of compassion.
This alone means that we are make progress as a species in the realms of society and of spirit, and I find great comfort in that.
Life left to its most neutral devices may not be designed to bring us all the things that we feel we need to sustain and nurture our bodies and our souls.
But we are beginning to understand that we can decide to do that for ourselves and for one another. That is a choice that is and has always been available to us.
Peace & blessings,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.
Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.
For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way
and become themselves despite all opposition.
-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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08-04-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
I think that there is less ratification of received knowledge...and more questioning and faster cycles of turnover.
There is a greater need and expectation that each person will need to engage and decide for themselves what the information means.
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Yes, it seems there's now greater onus on the individual, whereas maybe in the past just following some established way might have been enough. Also there's more acceptance of all sorts of different life choices - such as changing career multiple times etc. Seems to be an effect of greater flow of information as people learn about other cultures, other options open up etc. In general, people want to pack a lot more activity and experiences into their life, as well as extending boundaries like starting a family later, continuing activities into later years, maybe children are more advanced earlier etc.
So with all that's available now, a good skill to have, it seems, is being able to manage it all and in a way reduce it down in a way that makes personal sense, as we only have a limited life span, x hours of time etc. Whereas in the past demand for information exceeded supply, in a way.
And you mention engagement, which is much more a factor now. Ok, it's always been there as an option - to engage/participate if one wanted to badly enough, but now, it's just taken for granted. Also in the past one had to kind of wait and be qualified/recognised in some way first, and then there was a time lapse between publications, getting feedback etc.
Quote:
I think this puts a lot more responsibility on each person to take responsibility for their own thoughts and responses and behaviours. But with that, there is also, as you hint at, a growing personal awareness that happiness and contentment have very little to do with information per se, and everything to do with our perspective and our priorities, and how we interact with the world based on that.
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Yeah, I suppose it's a question of enough vs too much.
And quality over quantity.
I'm thinking how enough and too much will vary for different people and at different stages too. Having a wide variety available to children for example is really important I think as children have such an appetite for information, and get more out of it than adults.
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I am reading a book (slowly) by a prof of philosophy, a woman named Susan Neiman, called Moral Clarity: A Book for Grown-Up Idealists. There is a bit on the story of Job, who did everything right with right intention and who was not rewarded in his lifetime. From biblical times till now, the response of society was that he must have somehow earned or deserved his fate. We judged his character based on how he fared in life...which to the modern mind and heart feels very wrong.
From the time of the enlightenment, she notes, we have separated our judgment from what actually happened to Job -- so we no longer say he must have done something to deserve all this misfortune. (Whether he agreed to it pre-incarnation is different -- that is not a moral judgment of his character). Instead most of us would now agree that life is often not fair and our reponse would be one of compassion.
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I suppose generally, yeah. There's probably less judgement of others generally, and more openness. Although looking on the surface it might not look that way sometimes, but as the world has become smaller - more compact - with more multi-culturalism there's more awareness of things happening globally, more analysis. Whereas way back then, worlds were small and local and outside of a certain perimeter what was unknown was feared in a way. So maybe harsh judgement of others was a form of protection, as in a natural protection from 'the unknown', outsiders etc.
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This alone means that we are make progress as a species in the realms of society and of spirit, and I find great comfort in that. Life left to its most neutral devices may not be designed to bring us all the things that we feel we need to sustain and nurture our bodies and our souls.
But we are beginning to understand that we can decide to do that for ourselves and for one another. That is a choice that is and has always been available to us.
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It seems more like progress when you put it that way. Thank you for sharing these thoughts, 7luminaries.
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17-06-2013, 01:43 PM
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Master
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,806
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I've come to appreciate that information is "truth".
Knowledge is "enlightenment".
As the world comes to this realization, the value of it changes.
It's not something to acquire and harness for dominating the planet,
it's actually the lifeblood of the universe.
The thing is, it's free and available to all who desire it.
Hoarding information and keeping "secret" knowledge is wacky.
Love, which is Truth, is not something meant for some but not others.
It's for EVERYONE. We are all vessels of light.
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18-06-2013, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E
I've come to appreciate that information is "truth".
Knowledge is "enlightenment".
As the world comes to this realization, the value of it changes.
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So information increases in value if more people see it as truth? This would make sense, if the true is valued over the false. So having information then is better than having no information...
What if it's 'bad' information though? Would it be better to have no information in that case?
Quote:
It's not something to acquire and harness for dominating the planet,
it's actually the lifeblood of the universe.
The thing is, it's free and available to all who desire it.
Hoarding information and keeping "secret" knowledge is wacky.
Love, which is Truth, is not something meant for some but not others.
It's for EVERYONE. We are all vessels of light.
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I agree that information is a type of flow, or a lifeblood.
I agree also that it should be freely available to all who desire it.
It seems you are looking at it also with a view somewhat similar to economics - supply and demand, capitalist and socialist etc.
Economics is not something I have much knowledge of the workings of...
I understand that if something is hoarded - like gold for example - then its monetary value increases...
Did you intend some kind of analogy here somewhere, or could you explain it a little more?
You also point to the idea of restricting it - which could be by hoarding or censorship etc.
Is there less hoarding of information now than, say, 20 years ago? (Or maybe we have no way of telling this yet...).
What about say 100 years or so ago, compared to recent past?
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19-06-2013, 09:37 AM
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Master
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,806
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well, i believe "the truth" is good!
i don't think it can actually increase in value, but our appreciation of it can.
to my way of thinking "bad information" is just good info being put to bad use.
facts can change, truth is eternal.
the "economics" idea of info is something that i witness.
Various nations covet 'secret' info so as to hold positions of strength
against other nations... things like "intellectual property", science
and technology, troop deployments, etc.
none of that stuff is of lasting value (it's fact based stuff, not truth based)
The TRUTH is that we are all a single species here, we have a global community.
It makes no sense to squabble for domination over ourself!
There's also the idea of "surveilance" becoming very pronounced in the industrialized nations.
A whole bunch of effort is being put into (and against) the perceived need to "monitor" everything.
The collection of Tera-bytes of info detailing the most obscure trivialities is seen as a valuable (or threatening) endevour.
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19-06-2013, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E
to my way of thinking "bad information" is just good info being put to bad use.
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I would say that 'putting something to bad use' is in itself just an effect of bad information...
However, I agree with what you're saying, as circles or patterns can be broken, or can change.
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well, i believe "the truth" is good!
i don't think it can actually increase in value, but our appreciation of it can.
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I see you make a key distinction between noun and verb, which is good as it avoids confusion.
So basically, when we value something, we do not confer value, we appreciate(or acknowledge?) a value that is intrinsic. I think I agree with this, at least in the context of what we're discussing.
Another question... Would you say "the truth" is of a fixed or infinite value?
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facts can change, truth is eternal.
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Sometimes I have or have had difficulty with the way the word 'fact' can be used. I think this statement pinpoints why. When something is presented as factual, it's supposed to mean that it has a high truth-value(is indisputable and unchangeable).
In its proper context it would have a certain truth-value. Difficulties arise when things are removed from context.
So, as you say, facts can change.
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the "economics" idea of info is something that i witness.
Various nations covet 'secret' info so as to hold positions of strength
against other nations... things like "intellectual property", science
and technology, troop deployments, etc.
none of that stuff is of lasting value (it's fact based stuff, not truth based)
The TRUTH is that we are all a single species here, we have a global community.
It makes no sense to squabble for domination over ourself!
There's also the idea of "surveilance" becoming very pronounced in the industrialized nations.
A whole bunch of effort is being put into (and against) the perceived need to "monitor" everything.
The collection of Tera-bytes of info detailing the most obscure trivialities is seen as a valuable (or threatening) endevour.
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Yes, this is quite interesting stuff. I won't talk about conspiracies etc, but there is probably something to it(in my opinion) because otherwise, as you suggest, it doesn't make sense that we don't all co-operate, co-exist peacefully etc.
It seems that raw data has become much more important in the past decade or so, or the gathering and storage of it has become important. As you point out, it's hard to see of what importance the data would be in and of itself.
Again, I don't want to be too dystopian or anything, but I would not like to see us lose what makes us human. The ability to remember certain things, and forget certain things, makes us human.
Then again, there is a natural need in some way to preserve some things.
If no records were ever kept, we would have no history to study.
So could it be that it's just some kind of extension of that?
A creation of a super-history, if we could call it that...
The idea of emails and such things being made available to posterity, though, is kind of strange to imagine.
Clearly there is an ethical issue there that will have to be faced at some point.
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20-06-2013, 07:46 AM
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Master
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,806
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1) I don't know how to answer the question: " Would you say "the truth" is of a fixed or infinite value?
I sense that "fixed" and "infinite" seem appropriate descriptors.
I feel that "the Truth" is growing too in some way. [which seems non-sensical to my logical mind]
2)In a way, I see facts as "useful" only as they relate to Truth.
When a particular fact leads us away from Truth, then it is a hindrance to our understanding and holds no value.
Here's what I mean: The Truth is "at Peace"... it has no foes.
When facts are used to convince someone that they are endangered, those facts are being used "against" Truth.
Such "facts" are not based on Truth; they are therefore false and of no (good) use for anyone.
3) Information is viewed as a "commodity" nowadays (based on what TV tells me). I'm not a fan of this mindset.
I prefer an easier existence.
I believe that ALL information is "retrievable", as needed/desired....
Everything we need to know is "encoded" within us!
[I just don't know how to 'activate' this knowledge as yet -- nor do I need to!]
Society would probably judge such thinking as " wack-a-bird";
but I prefer peace to conflict, and society still values "drama" too much for my taste.
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20-06-2013, 07:14 PM
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I hestitated to ask, but was interested to know what the answer would be, if there was any.
I think you answered it and I agree with your points.
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I sense that "fixed" and "infinite" seem appropriate descriptors.
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The Greeks talked of 'the unmoved mover' - seems to be similar to this.
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2)In a way, I see facts as "useful" only as they relate to Truth.
When a particular fact leads us away from Truth, then it is a hindrance to our understanding and holds no value.
Here's what I mean: The Truth is "at Peace"... it has no foes.
When facts are used to convince someone that they are endangered, those facts are being used "against" Truth.
Such "facts" are not based on Truth; they are therefore false and of no (good) use for anyone.
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I really like this reasoning. Can't really argue with it.
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I believe that ALL information is "retrievable", as needed/desired....
Everything we need to know is "encoded" within us! [I just don't know how to 'activate' this knowledge as yet -- nor do I need to!]
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Yes - I do believe this too actually, now that you mention it.
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Society would probably judge such thinking as "wack-a-bird";
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A new word to me
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20-06-2013, 07:49 PM
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Master
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,274
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There's a difference between information being available and accessing it. You'd think it would make people smarter, but there's so much junk on the internet and that's usually what people are interested in. I think it just shortens our attention spans further. Information is more valuable now than ever because it's rare to find good information.
__________________
"Just came back from the storm." -Jimi Hendrix
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