Find the cause of suffering

Truth.
Right.
Everything can be twisted.. Oh except the Truth of Gem of course..
That stuff is the real thing. The rest are just a bunch of wanna be believers.

Never have I ever met someone so utterly convinced of his own beliefs..
Guess I don't meet that many Fanatics..

With sin-cerity(making it easy to play wit the words for a certain someone)
Eelco

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

The basis of Gotama's teachings is to acknowledge ones own suffering, find the cause, and thus end suffering.

Most of us suffer and find cause in external things that hurt us. This means suffering is linked to sensation. The question is, does sensation cause suffering, or is it the way we relate to sensation that is cause?

In the meditation, mindfulness, we are aware of ourselves, body, mind, emotion, just as they are as they happen to arise. The obstacle to this is 'distraction'. We can drift off into autopilot and become unconscious of what is actually happening, and instead, live in an imaginary world created in reaction to the actual real lived experience.

In sitting practice we soon see we are aware of our sensation and thought, and then we drift away into imaginary pasts, futures and fantasies. It's not bad or incorrect to do this. The meditation practice just enables a conscious recognition of it. Now you know, 'so this is what I do'.

From that preliminary, the the same process of being aware, noticing and discovering continues, revealing the truth about ourselves. Through this process of 'sati' we soon come to learn about how we relate to sensation - including physical, emotional and psychological - and come to realise how we cause our own suffering by relating to sensation in a somewhat delusional way.

Once this cause is identified, each new arising of suffering is recognised as 'something I do', rather than 'something that happens to me'... and we are thereby led to understand the way to bring suffering to an end.

Hello.

I would agree with all your sharing.
All doing whether our own or the external doing at us/upon us/against us (if our suffering comes through this) becomes our own doing and undoing in everyway we experience ourselves. We can end suffering as deep as we notice and see ourselves suffering, but only when and if you end all external grievances/reactions/separateness to life itself. This is total presence with self aligned to itself, aware and connected without judgement or distractions as life is within itself.

Every moment and interaction is an opportunity to bring yourself back to yourself. The mind will fight for it's right to party. Wont it?

Originally Posted by JustBe

All doing whether our own or the external doing at us/upon us/against us (if our suffering comes through this) becomes our own doing and undoing in everyway we experience ourselves. We can end suffering as deep as we notice and see ourselves suffering, but only when and if you end all external grievances/reactions/separateness to life itself. This is total presence with self aligned to itself, aware and connected without judgement or distractions as life is within itself.

Am I doing this?
Am I in control of the perception of suffering.


The way I understand the first noble truth is that there is dukkha.
Even though one can come to understand it, Find the cause and then take away the causes.


Kamma will ensue that suffering takes place as long as I am born.
In my understanding By reaching nibanna one is sure one will not create new kamma to suffer through, but the old patterns of dhukka although now obsolete do still move to their results.


Until we die and are free from rebirth dukkha is a given.
Birth, sickness, old age and dying. dukkha. Suffering.


I agree that when we have penetrated the latter noble truths we will stop adding to our suffering through understanding. By letting go of every idea of clinging we can come to a point where we don't identify with dukkha and therefore can let it be as it is without attraction or aversion. At that point there is no I or me that suffers, but there is suffering non the less.


With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Hello.

I would agree with all your sharing.
All doing whether our own or the external doing at us/upon us/against us (if our suffering comes through this) becomes our own doing and undoing in everyway we experience ourselves. We can end suffering as deep as we notice and see ourselves suffering, but only when and if you end all external grievances/reactions/separateness to life itself. This is total presence with self aligned to itself, aware and connected without judgement or distractions as life is within itself.

Every moment and interaction is an opportunity to bring yourself back to yourself. The mind will fight for it's right to party. Wont it?

Yes, well said.



The mind usually puts up a fight since it has been habitualised into such reactivity, and the meditation process is very much a process of breaking the reactive habit.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Eelco

Am I doing this?
Am I in control of the perception of suffering.

Perceptions changes as we change and become more aware of ourselves. So the Am I, is really the I am what I am in each given moment, the person is you in everyway regardless of whether you know or don't know. You wont lose yourself when you find your realization. You may change your perception but its still the person that thought it wasn't in control. You could be controlling, yet blissfully unaware your in control of the perception of suffering, simply because your controlling yourself and cant see.

The way I understand the first noble truth is that there is dukkha.
Even though one can come to understand it, Find the cause and then take away the causes.

Hello again.

This is one way of understanding the ending of suffering through its simplistic view. Within the cause/suffering there is often a whole host of understanding that ties into Buddhist teachings more inclusive. One can pull out a root and decide its done and dusted, but the mind/body will often give rise to many aspects of that suffering, that can be addressed more holistically as a daily lived practice 'aware' of itself in this way. There is a mindful more conscious walk one can delve deeper into through the whole mind/body system and the system of life around us.

Kamma will ensue that suffering takes place as long as I am born.
In my understanding By reaching nibanna one is sure one will not create new kamma to suffer through, but the old patterns of dhukka although now obsolete do still move to their results.

So where are you in relation to all this in yourself? For me personally being aware of all this, it isn't just in the point of being born and suffering that matters alone, but where I rest or take refuge in myself aware of myself more holistically in everything your sharing. So even if I am unaware/unconscious of myself in the process of this life, by resting at that point of awareness of nirvana/nibanna as a more conscious practice day to day, then I see that all else ( if one is willing) falls away and we are left only with that point where you rest. So who then becomes the one to end suffering, is it Kamma or is it the you? If you grasp this concept then suffering actually ceases to be and taking refuge builds the foundational being state to actually enter into nirvana in the immediacy of each moment. Not tomorrow, next life or next year. Right now.

Until we die and are free from rebirth dukkha is a given.
Birth, sickness, old age and dying. dukkha. Suffering.

Why is birth sickness, old age and dying seen as suffering? Why can't it be seen as the nature of this world and life, in acceptance of what is without attachment to its cause. Open to yourself as the presence where you are. Can you see suffering (with a sound mind/body aware of itself) ends suffering the moment it is aware of itself not suffering?

I agree that when we have penetrated the latter noble truths we will stop adding to our suffering through understanding. By letting go of every idea of clinging we can come to a point where we don't identify with dukkha and therefore can let it be as it is without attraction or aversion. At that point there is no I or me that suffers, but there is suffering non the less.

Yes now your moving more in the direction I was pointing too, in my previous responses to you. There is only you as the one identifying in everyway you do, then there is you aware and identifying less with everything that becomes, just as it is. As life is.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, well said.



The mind usually puts up a fight since it has been habitualised into such reactivity, and the meditation process is very much a process of breaking the reactive habit.

Thankyou for the response.

I just wanted to add this. A very aware person, someone very aware of the teachings of Buddhism, very well versed in them, will not venture far into the waters of nibanna, unless they understand how deep those waters are in themselves.

I have been reading your responses and threads today, I do feel you understand yourself very aware of yourself at a deep level. It is a rare thing to find.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Thankyou for the response.

I just wanted to add this. A very aware person, someone very aware of the teachings of Buddhism, very well versed in them, will not venture far into the waters of nibanna, unless they understand how deep those waters are in themselves.

I have been reading your responses and threads today, I do feel you understand yourself very aware of yourself at a deep level. It is a rare thing to find.

I tend to leave the talk about high spiritual things like nirvana, enlightenment, emptiness etc to other people, and I just talk about more mundane things, but I can talk about them in subtle and nuanced ways because of my real-lived experience is subtle.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Gem

I tend to leave the talk about high spiritual things like nirvana, enlightenment, emptiness etc to other people, and I just talk about more mundane things, but I can talk about them in subtle and nuanced ways because of my real-lived experience is subtle.

Subtle defined as nuanced...oh dang I see you had that word in sentence too lol

sub·tle
ˈsədl/Submit
adjective
(especially of a change or distinction) so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyze or describe

well yea #1 nobody cares about somebody else's opinion, only their own, and reading/posting is to get affirmation to opinions and beliefs shared...

cyn·i·cism
ˈsinəˌsizəm/Submit
noun
1.
an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism.

af·firm·a·tion
ˌafərˈmāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
the action or process of affirming something or being affirmed.
"he nodded in affirmation"
synonyms: declaration, statement, assertion, proclamation, pronouncement, attestation; More
2.
emotional support or encouragement.

#2 people get mad if anyone tells them they are wrong....

unless one is selfless!

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Subtle defined as nuanced...oh dang I see you had that word in sentence too lol

sub·tle
ˈsədl/Submit
adjective
(especially of a change or distinction) so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyze or describe

I think of it like listening to Bach. The first time you listen to it you hear some basic tunes, and then, as you listen to over and over again you start to hear all the subtle nuances.

well yea #1 nobody cares about somebody else's opinion, only their own, and reading/posting is to get affirmation to opinions and beliefs shared...

cyn·i·cism
ˈsinəˌsizəm/Submit
noun
1.
an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism.

af·firm·a·tion
ˌafərˈmāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
the action or process of affirming something or being affirmed.
"he nodded in affirmation"
synonyms: declaration, statement, assertion, proclamation, pronouncement, attestation; More
2.
emotional support or encouragement.

#2 people get mad if anyone tells them they are wrong....

unless one is selfless!

I talk abut 'right' and 'wrong' in the meaning it has in the 8 fold noble path, which is not correct and incorrect - it's more to do with good intent, I guess.

Originally Posted by JustBe

This is one way of understanding the ending of suffering through its simplistic view.

I like simple. Makes clearer what is clear without muddling it too much.
The first noble truth can be pondered, experienced and talked about for months or even years and one will find new nuances.

Originally Posted by JustBe

Why is birth sickness, old age and dying seen as suffering? Why can't it be seen as the nature of this world and life, in acceptance of what is without attachment to its cause.

I don't always see it as suffering, but then I am no Arhat.
Accpeting what is doesn't make a birthing process less painful. Sickness less sucky, old-age less noticeably a process of decay and death less sorrowful.
Again by acceptance we don't add to the suffering that is already there.


Since we are talking the noble truth of suffering here I am omitting all the enjoyable stuff in live.Of which there is plenty as well.

Originally Posted by JustBe

Yes now your moving more in the direction I was pointing too, in my previous responses to you. There is only you as the one identifying in everyway you do, then there is you aware and identifying less with everything that becomes, just as it is. As life is.

I don't think there is me, Just a fabrication. Either by my mind or yours..