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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

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  #21  
Old 19-01-2016, 04:40 PM
Yaakov001 Yaakov001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved_one
Yes, I understand that many perpetuate the story of w****dom, who is this really about, YeshuA or his mother, Miryam?

If Sha'ul was a heretic why did he go to such lengths to uphold the Nazarite vow? Why did the Council in Acts basically implement the Noachide laws for the non-Jewish believers? Why did Yeshua quote Hillel so frequently?

The real question is, why didn't Paul the the heretic insist that Gentiles become Jews? Jesus was a Rabbi of the school of Hillel. Of course he would quote him often. Let's not ask dumb questions. As for the council in Acts, yes, I've read the Christian Bible too. That council was as heretical as Paul, and for much the same reason.
  #22  
Old 19-01-2016, 04:45 PM
Yaakov001 Yaakov001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved_one
Please don't misunderstand me though. I strongly believe that Judaism is more authentic IE closer to the Truth than Christianity. However, I do and will continue to defend Yeshua, who has fulfilled part of the Messianic promise .. the Word has gone out into the whole world, the whole world now has knowledge of HaShem, the One true Elohim, and the exiles (whom you still "bless" daily, if you really want it on the table) are being gathered in.

Calling Jesus the Word, the Divine Logos, making G-d a man, or a man into G-d, is the most rank form of idolatry I can think of. It makes th Golden Calf look like child's play.
  #23  
Old 22-01-2016, 09:02 AM
beloved_one beloved_one is offline
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Sorry, double post.
  #24  
Old 22-01-2016, 09:09 AM
beloved_one beloved_one is offline
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The Word = The Torah. Which is now known in every country and Christianity has done more to spread this good news, which is Jewish, BTW, than any other religion. At the same time Judaism, especially Orthodox, Rabbinical Judaism, has done more to maintain and keep the Torah, both written and oral, than any other religion.

My Elohim is the same as Yeshua's, and Yeshua is my Rabbi. Paul has been attributed for many things which have been misconstrued. The Jerusalem bet din recorded in Acts came up with a very Jewish solution.. as can be demonstrated by viewing Rabbinical Judaism taking much the same approach today. There were simply too many "converts" towards the end of the Second temple period, and many of them were not sincere. This is why I believe Paul said "Let the circumcised remain circumcised and let the uncircumcised remain uncircumcised", yet he circumcised Timothy, who had a Jewish mother.

Adonai, I believe, intended for Israel to bring the Torah to the nations. This was what Paul's dream about clean and unclean animals was about, and not about dietary laws.
  #25  
Old 27-01-2016, 04:30 AM
Yaakov001 Yaakov001 is offline
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Much as I wish to respond, I shall have to do it later. My current classwork and writing schedule call me in other directions. That book if mine isn't going to write itself.
  #26  
Old 27-01-2016, 04:20 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaakov001
Jesus was a Rabbi of the school of Hillel.

To refer to Jesus as a rabbi is an anachronistic use of that term. To categorically state that he was aligned with the school of Hillel, frankly I believe that there is no way to verify that position.

L'shalom,

Peter
  #27  
Old 28-01-2016, 09:46 PM
IamSoul49 IamSoul49 is offline
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Hello All

There is always this debate - this question unanswered - asked by both original traditional jews and also later,new religion christians - the question of the affiliation of Christ,would sum it up - His intentions for one and all..Did He for example - come to continue that which was already in place (established original jewish tradition) - or did He come to replace it with this "new christian religion" that takes His name specificallly..?....

The answer is neither - Christ did not come to the jews specifically,as if they are some "chosen people of the true god" - and neither did He come to start a new religion with Him as figurehead (complete opposite actually,no religion at all,His truth renders such institution,absolutely obsolete)...

In all the endless debate,word games,arguments and theories - rarely - very rarely indeed - do any of us actually pay attention to HIM,and the the things He said directly...Specifically,the things He said about Himself,Divine claims,direct from the source of all creation - and more importantly here for this discussion - the specific things He said about Our Father (said source of creation) - as opposed to "yahweh god of the jews"...

And yes - opposed to yahweh,is the very crux of the issue here - it will confuse some,and outrage a great many more - but actually - from His own mouth - repeated often - Christ totally disavows the established jewish deity,its traditions and everything to do with that god and religion...To claim Christ was a jew at all - is quite absurd,given some of the things He said....To claim He is a jewish rabbi,is ridiculous beyond words....Pharisee,religious teachers - He despised them all,challenged them openly,time after time - damn them He said - neither know truth,nor allow you to have it either - shun them all He said...

Stop right here - take a pause - a serious question....Why did the jews murder Him ?

Options: They were enemies..?...He was a threat to them..?...They feared Him..?...Their god told them to..?...

Answer: All of the above....in a way - from their perspective at least - He indeed,was their enemy,thought He Himself wished it otherwise,they refused the truth and set out to destroy it and silence it....Understand - They fully expected a man to show up,messiah from their god - and when He did finally arrive,He had some very troubling things to tell them all indeed - literally split their faith apart - the hundreds of later christian sects that form are the result of this new truth He gave).....

For instance - He told us plainly - the jewish god,we knows as yahweh - it claimed always to be supreme god,lord of all creation,yes..? - and yet Christ said openly,defiantly,this was not a god at all,but merely an Angel that once mistakenly believed itself supreme - and even though it now knows truth,it is duping you into giving it false worship He warned,holding you dominated,subserviant (even to this day through those later religions,this remains so)...

He then spoke and taught openly of a new,never before encountered ,supreme and Primal true Divine spirit - as said - not even the jewish god yahweh,or its Angels had knowledge of the Father at first He said,it was mistaken in its belief of suprmeacy - but when it found out that truth,it refused to yield,and set about dominating its own pocket creation here,claiming still,a sovereignty over our Souls,that it had no title to hold at all..hence He said,He came with secrets to tell,new truths - and this truth He promised,would set us free...

See then - Christ is not affiliated with the god of the jews at all - niether is He against it...He merely says it is an error of belief - part truth,part deception - a trap for the unwary Soul,that will follow this god and become lost in these lower realms here..Thus,such a Soul can never return fully,to its Source and original Home,Our Father....Its a complicated narrative,as you could probably guess - but rest assured,Christ told it all start to finish - from Our Fathers first stirring thought,through to mankind finally walks the Earth....

About mid way through - we learn of a single Divine mistake - an Angel called forth in ignorance by an unguarded Divine thought of the Goddess Sofia - this malformed Angel He said,resembles a dragon and it is immediatly expelled from the realm - the dragon cast from heaven - the rest as they say,is "twisted" history as according to Christ directly,this malformed mistakenly created Angel,is indeed the one who in its turn,directly creates us,mankind here on the earth - the dragon it turns out,is the one we know as "god" and has been tricking deceiving manipulating us,all the way through...

And so - Yeshua who is Christ had no affiliation to the jewish god - and spoke of this openly - and proved His own Divine claims with these dynamic,spur of the moment miracles that no priest of yahweh could perform - not even come close to attaining...First public miracle by Christ - He heals a leper !! Now understand - leper - cannot be cured - priest says they are unclean,outcast - their god has literally discarded them, yes..?..And yet Christ seeks one out - heals Him fully with just a simple touch and a word - no prayer needed,no ritual ,no sacrifice,no payment to temple - no time delay - instant dynamic bona fide miracle - understand..?..

Now Christ tells him specifically - please dont make a fuss now,but go straight to a rabbi at the temple,show him your condition and explain I wish to meet them.....Now,had the leper done as asked,things might have been different - Yeshua would have met the rabbis privately as He desired,they could have talked like rational men,privately withut al the public circus that would come - they could have decided what to do - no challenge or animaosity was needed - Christ wsihed to pursuade them with legitimate truth...

BUT - the stupid leper man - runs off to the crowded market - grabs 15 minutes of fame while he can,boasting of the messiah and how he is healed now by Him with just a touch and a Word that no priest can match !! That leper changed the course of our history Im afraid...what could have been peaceful re education - turned into civil dispute,unrest - and eventually - murder !!

Thus through such miracles,time and time again - all knew He was legitimate,and so,He became a direct and obvious threat to the established religion,its power,status,security....They dare not act directly - look,He is TRULY Divine - they knew it for sure - and so,out of fear that Our Father would be like their god - vengeful,wrathful,violent - out of fear of retribution for what they plotted,they had the Romans intercede,under pretense and false charges - kept their own hands clean - just in case His Father came for vengance,as their god surely does..

N0 - Christ was not of that god at all - but spoke of a new truth that as said - emphatically said by Him,and repeated often - none know my Father - even He said,the god and its angels above,have never encountered the truth of it..yet He was there - as creation first dawned He said - living Divine spirit - part of a Trinity godhead that is Source of All else...

For this truth they murdered Him...Plain and simple...Silenced Him - kept power and status secure - continued to push the cause of the lesser god that had always given them that power and status..See next - division...Christ rose literally from the grave - and then even the unbelievers had pause for thought - the religion fractured into hundreds of new forming sects,each claiming His truth and each set,in violence even,one against the other...

For near 4 centuries that continued - uintil Rome had finally had enough - gathered them altogether,and ordered them - dictated to them - a new religion - one "catholic" religion - with Rome pulling the strings of course..This then used its military might,to continue to eradicate all original truth of Christ - and replace it the world over,with fraudulant "catholic church doctrine" - all of ocurse,still following the wrong "god" entirely........This institution,managed to dominate most of the world for over 1800 years - it held total sway over every aspect of society here in the west,and had total control over public knowledge and public truth....They lied,manipulated and tricked - exactly as the god has always done....This god the THREE religions follow - is not the Father Source of Creation that Christ teaches us of - and for this truth they murdered Him and spent centuries hunting down and eradicating the "gnostic heretic" and any who understood the metaphysical Wisdom He gave..

(yes - 3 religions - one false god - fo rthis ione yahweh - after theymurder Christ and its cover is blown there,so to speak - so it goes off to a new nation - presents itself again,under new disguise to a new "chosen" - starts the Islam religon with mohammed - same god - same agenda - dominate - hold subserviant - to acheiove this end - it then sets aboiut a never ending war - one of its own sets of worshippers - ordered to sestroy the other in a ceaseless violent struggle,all inthis "god of loves name......Trickery - deceipt throughout - as Christ said - the blind led the blind,we all fall down...

I said above - He came to eradicate and make obsolete - ALL forms of "institutionalised worship" - He said that no mortal can give you this truth or promise it to you after death for deeds done here in life as reward or punishment - for it is found within you always - already there,right now - a living part of this Primal Sovereign Spirit -regardless of socity station - priest or sinner in Our Fathers sight - all are equal He said..Again,we see,the middleman,priest,church,institution - has become immediatly - obsolete,null,void,useless...the thing we seek,is ours already - cant be given by any other - but of course - it can be "hidden" by them,and th elies and deceipt they offer..

And so the actual truth as He said - simple - everything you have been taught thus far,is lie,error,deceipt He said - come to "hate the parents",despise that tradition totally - shun all organised religion for it leads you astray - they dont know this truth and would not share it even if they could - there is no need of a middleman intermediary - turn away from the religion He said,it is not the god we seek - turn instead,forever inwards (meditate) until we find a "secret silent place within" - into this place,the true Presence shines forth - find it - allow it - follow it always - become it....

A fully inner journey - no priest or middleman - to follow such a thing is to be led away from the truth you seek He warned - the god of tradition is not the one we seek - seek first and always,this Kingdom within - bring it forth here and now,only this can "save" - come to know this Presence within,even before you die the mortal death - for it is eternal truth - and those who have it,do not even die at all...

Wrong god - no priest clergy guru middleman needed.....And so we see - all three religions that follow this god - are not at all what Christ had intended - He came to give us truth of the first religion and this god - and to remove the need for any such institution to ever rise again....were He here again now,have no doubt,the RC church would be trembling it its pulpits and again He would tell the world clearly - you have been misled by a lesser petty spiteful demigod,masquerading as something it is not,claiming authority over you all that it has no rites to claim.....Next time Hes back - for pities sake - lets pay attention to HIM for a change - and try NOT to murder Him out of our own petty fears and ignorance....For those with ears to hear....
  #28  
Old 28-01-2016, 11:21 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamSoul49

Stop right here - take a pause - a serious question....Why did the jews murder Him ?



אל תען כסיל כאולתו פן תשוה לו גם אתה
  #29  
Old 29-01-2016, 08:01 AM
ObServant ObServant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamSoul49
....Why did the jews murder Him ?....
A more pertinent question - Why is such an inflammatory comment permitted in the section of the site devoted to Judaism?

Such provocative statements have been used to promote anti-Semitism for the last 2,000 years.

If such a comment has any place at all it is in the Christianity section - although, it would still be offensive even there.
  #30  
Old 29-01-2016, 04:02 PM
IamSoul49 IamSoul49 is offline
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Hello All

RabbiO; Ah - so in our mind,Iam a fool already for daring to even voice such a thing..?...So - you wont answer you say,in case you become foolish too..?...It already happened my friend - foolishness - is surely refusing to keep an open mind - yes..?..Foolishness - is surely clinging to a false belief,in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence - yes..?...

Yes - there is foolishness here - but I didnt introduce it...

So - the response so far then - is for you to say basically - the jews never murdered Christ and it is a foolish notion to believ so - the jews never instigated that act - are not respnsible directly,for His murder..?..(yes - murder - what actual crime was He guilty of again..?..This was not done for any sense of "justice" was it..?..No - I say,it is done to silence His truth and stop His challenges to their "authority",plain and simple - so yes,murder it was indeed)....

Its not at all foolish to state that - especially when all the parties involved at the time all record the same narrative....Christ has confontation with jewish leaders - they then approach their roman masters - sham trial and execution follows because of their insistance...Yes..?....or do you say that never happened now..?..

That is accepted "world view facts" - accepted "religious history" - is it not..?..Foolishness here,is to ignore such basic truths - especially if they bring about the realisation of deep seated errors in belief and judgement..

ObServant; Are you..?..Judging from earlier comments,plus other remarks here to myself included,Im not so sure you are very observant at all..Earlier you even said
Quote:
And Muslims would also include the Koran, but Jews would not include Christian and Islamic books amongst their scripture - anymore than Christians would include Hindu or Confucionist books amongst theirs.


Observant..?.. I mean - are you really even awake..?..You failed to notice there - a rather obvious fact - jews,christians,muslims - all share this one god - the other religions you mention ave no affiliation to it at all..Therefore,obviously - if you want actual and complete truth of your god,you need by necessity,include what it said to these others also - yes..?...Otherwise,all you will have is closed minded and biassed,indoctrinated opiniion..

You say I make inflammatory statements - but do you see - observe - the anger is yours alone - I offered none,didnt introduce that here either

The mere fact you respond with such immediate negativity - shows clearly your own state of mind...You become "inflamed" as you say,and this is because - obviously - you just heard something that made you angry...Observe yourself then - anger - comes form fear,always...So - obviously then,something I write,makes you fearful - yes..?..And this is why you raise your horns toward me - a threat you perceive.....Truth is here - you dont like the things presented at all - if they are founded in truth,that means then you have been duped all along -and this is the fear that goads your response...Shoot the messenger if you must - but the truth remains the truth,nonetheless..

Provocative you say..?.......yes indeed - I aim to provoke - not a confrontation though - as said,that came from you - I want though,to provoke an open and clear mind for you all - to provoke you into some free thinking for a change - instead of indoctrinated belief....To that end - perhaps you could try answering some of the points raised - if you can - and in that process,I promise,you will uncover the root of your own fear here..

So - lets start again - the topic is wholly pertinant to this subfiorum of course - not just the christians - He was born into the jewish nation after all,even though He came to tell this contrary truth...As said this god is god to three factions - the hebrews are not chosen especially - not any more - not since even before Christ - the god picked anew - twice already...Wholly pertinant here,this thread too - as the dilemma is in essence - Who is He - Christ - jew or new religion founded by Him - the answer is as said - neither - but a new truth that He said explicitly,none had ever encountered before - not man nor Angel above He said,yet know of this Primal and legitimate Divine Spirit..

Now obviously this brings fear - and we see that negative knee jerk reaction from some of you - and no doubt it will continue perhaps...But for your own sakes - step back - look objectively - try to remain unbiassed and open minded - you will see for sure,there is truth in every thing I have presented - piece it together and it becomes a whole and obvious thing...

Start again then - I will rephrase the comment you found offensive - and ask now simply - why did the jews act against Yeshua..?

(after all,I admit they have no control over rome,so could not have actually known His death would definately follow - but still,they did act against Him,resulting in that death,did they not)...It was their insistance,that caused His death and that is undeniable...The reasons why they may have done that,stated above,remain valid options - either He was an open enemy,or He presented such a threat,they needed to remove Him,and it is their own fear that leads to His death - undeniable..

Heres some other things to consider here : He said - yes,Iam the one you await - the full living Divine Presence direct form the Father that is Source of All....And indeed,the jews at that time are expecting just such a One to appear,arent they..?....Had it drummed into them - by a god that is very very very communicative - at first......Lots and lots and lots of direct communication - prophecy from this god about this event.......At first this is so - very very active close commuication...But then - suddenyl - it all stops - and by the time Christ arrives,no one had spoken to that god directly for a long long time...

But lets examine that - He turns up - immediatly they deny Him...My question now then - is how did they know..?...HOW did they even know..?....Now - not one of them - ran off to commune with this "god" directly to get the answer - did they..?...NO....This god was not even speaking to he hebrews any more by that time - We know that for sure - because look the last time this god spoke directly to the jewsih people - was through the last known Prophet,Malachi - was it not..?..And that was centuries before Christ came....

At the time,the jewish people had no active prophet at all - and have not had since either by the way...This is because as I say - the arrival of Christ meant effectively,that yahwehs cover was blown - truth was out - rather than fight for his false position and false authoirty,yahweh actually vacates authority here finally - he actually ascends to that higher realm and investigates - encoutners the true Divine for itself,does not even bother to come back to us here at all to address the mess we are in,but leaves the fixing of it all to Christ alone...

Actually - that not completly accurate - once yahweh encounters the true Divine,it seems he is most regretful and ashamed - tries to eradicate his own ignorant creation here - the Flood - very very real of course - his ignorance of truth - his jealous powermongering ways - his need to guard and keep authority - his overpowering need for total acceptance (who can blame it,his mother rejected him out of hand as less than perfection) - all this led to a world situation of corruption and evil for mankind - and so he decides to eradicate it all,stay upstairs with the true Divine - mature and perhaps try his hand again at Creation,when he is ready.....

It was at this stage the true Divine simply over step yahwehs authority here,and basically,Christ comes to save the day - not sent by yahweh at all - but acting freely of His own Divine volition..Hence - when Christ walked among us - the jewish people had no active prophet - their god had already vacated authority here,never to return it seems - and this is indeed why Malachi is the last human to have direct communion with him...

Christ assumed full responsiblity for this creation here - and the hebrew god readily agreed to this....No "christian pastor" has EVER had communication directly from yahweh - NOT ONE - not ever...A few legitimate Saints may have encountered the Trinity and Higher realm,for sure - but none are communicating with this specific Angel Yahweh any more..Neither have the later Islamic religion,EVER encountered this (demi)god directly - only its angels....The absolute last time it addressed mankind directly is through that man Malachi - after that,it is this gods agents - Angels (especially those it trapped here among us,that we name Fallen,demon,jinn) - these are responsible for most of mankinds history - control and domination...But,we should never forget - they are only here able to do this - because of this "god",its ignorance,its powermongering,and its usurping of authority that it should never have had...

Christ came to tell the jews this truth - to instruct now in a new legitimate truth..hence He told everyone - come to hate your parents - their ways are an error and they have the worng god entirely..Hence He told everyone - damn the pharisee who promites that false truth and keeps you ignorant...hence He told everyone - avoid all public institutoinalised religion - go alone to commune He said - seek the legitimate Divine and it is always an inward journey of Self discovery,for You All,are ALREADY part of the legitimate Sovereign spirit - always have been - realise it now,here in life He said,and when your mortal body dies,your Soul will know eternal life...

You have the wrong god He said - and all men and their religions will lead you astray He warned - so really - the answer is to the conundrum here is clear - Christ is neither a jew,nor a new forming religious christian - but He is and always was - a seeker of the living Divine truth of Self - this of course,means if anything,He should be labeled - GNOSTIC

Last edited by IamSoul49 : 29-01-2016 at 06:49 PM.
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