Physical murder vs. spiritual murder

[CrystalSong]

In the Highest picture there is no death, there is only passing in and out of forms.
Our bodies are not even ours, they are borrowed from Earth and will return to Earth when we are finished with them.
Once Consciousness comes into existence, it can only change forms - not cease to exist.

It is only the Ego or Personality, the thinking mind that believes it can be killed if the body is killed. It is only the human mind which believes another person can somehow steal its soul or destroy it by destroying its works.
All of this comes down to reaction though - how an individual ego reacts to any given situation.

Let's say 100 different egos (personalities, minds) have business's and each persons business is blown up.
You will have 100 different reactions based on how much each person saw their business as an extension of themselves. This is the ego projecting itself onto things, events and people.

One person may just walk away and say "Good, I couldn't figure out how to get out of business on my own - Someone did it for me - Now I'm free!"

Another person might go into shock and need therapy for years, then be okay again and rebuild a business or move into some other line of work.

Another person might immediately start rebuilding and this time build it exactly the way they wanted to after having had a lot more experience on learning exactly what they wanted through having the business the first time.

Yet another person might go into a self defeating pity party, dive into a bottle and drive away their spouse and children and end up loosing their home and all manner of unpleasant things.

Another might throw their hands up and quite and commit suicide.

Yet another might turn it into a publicity stunt to get lots of free advertising and donations to rebuild again.

100 people a 100 different ego's all reacting based on their own inner self talk.

So no, no one can kill us (borrowed bodies right) or spiritually kill us. But our reactions can make this physical life, for as long as it lasts, a living hell until we decide to stop telling our self whatever the damaging story is that is suppressing us. If the event has stopped happening it is over and it is only our continued licking of the wound that causes continued problems. The event is ended. The business blown up. How we relate to that event is Free Will. Carry it? Nurse it? Let it crush us, Shrug our shoulders and move on?

Meanwhile the Spirit of each person is totally unaffected by the ego's reaction to a perceived event. Spirit literally see's it all as just energy moving around and doesn't judge it. One can not reach someone's Spirit through their personality - as it doesn't even exist wholly in the 3rd dimension in the first place. No one can kill another person Spirit. What a silly thought!!!

There has been a misunderstanding in what you've read. Comparing human will power to a person Spirit or Higher Self is like trying to draw an analogy between a cave corn troglodyte and a soaring eagle. Calling will power and personal drive 'the Spirit' is a misunderstanding of the Greater Consciousness construct.
While we can damage a persons will power to recover and find happiness - it's not a 100% - some people can't be broken and will sacrifice their body's before allowing themselves to be broken. War and torture reveals this all the time. But that will power is not the same as Spirit which is Eternal and exist in Oneness far outside the machinations of human ego's in the third dimension with only a small aspect of its self connected with it's body/mind on Earth.

[Kathrin]

What would you say is cruelty in this context?

[lauterb]

Dear Kathrin

If I understand correctly, you are making some mistakes based on wrong assumptions:

Body can die yes, a spirit cannot die, as soon as God creates a spirits he becomes imortal will never stop existing!

We (when incarnated) we have 3 "parts": body, spirit and perispirit (the link betwen body and spirit). Our body is like a clothe, as soon as wear out we leave it and wait for another one in our long evolutionary journey. Pse remember that we had and we will have several reincarnations, as muuch as necessary to obtain/reach our perfection!

Cruelty is just manifestation of impure and undeveloped spirits, who in the future will also reach perfection, but for them will take longer...

God created 2 things only, matter and spirit. Pse note that perispirit is matter too since it is a material link for the spirit and his body.

You will find all above information and much more in the books from Allan Kardec. You can freely download at internet in pdf files!

Good study!

[Kathrin]

Would you say that cruelty relies only on perception or has relevance or meaning beyond individual perception? If one feels handled cruelly, even murdered or sacrificed for another's desire, is this an egoistic notion? Or do you see a general rightness in this context?

[CrystalSong]

Originally Posted by Kathrin

What would you say is cruelty in this context?

I would say it is up to the perceiver to make that level of determination from the level of consciousness they are at.

[Kathrin]

So, cruelty does not exist, if not perceived as such. That means, there's nothing to be solved. The individual perception would need a change, away from the judgment of "wrong" or "danger". Yet, a body keeps alarming about danger and cruelty, when having been exposed to "cruelty". If the neuro system keeps alerting on threatening situations and suggesting flight, fight, is that also an egoistic notion? If so, just accepting the danger of pain or death with the triggering situation could be a solution. Makes me think about Law of Attraction basics. If there's no "threat" vibrated, nothing happens. The fact that things happen to children, must be mostly relating to their genetic vibration, plus some socialization vibes. Or, socialization effects quickly and deeply, so that attracting a threat or danger becomes enabled.

[Kathrin]

I find it helpful to consider mind and ego to be the ones labeling and judging. Now, I'm wondering about a solution for the bodily functions, the neuro system (triggers, PTSD). Could those triggers be deleted by changing one's perspective to non-judgment? It could at least be unlearned... thinking about dogs and cats, who've been through abuse and recovered. Maybe a therapy mix of un-judging, followed by exposure could help to get out.

[Internal Queries]

Originally Posted by Kathrin

So, cruelty does not exist, if not perceived as such. That means, there's nothing to be solved. The individual perception would need a change, away from the judgment of "wrong" or "danger". Yet, a body keeps alarming about danger and cruelty, when having been exposed to "cruelty". If the neuro system keeps alerting on threatening situations and suggesting flight, fight, is that also an egoistic notion? If so, just accepting the danger of pain or death with the triggering situation could be a solution. Makes me think about Law of Attraction basics. If there's no "threat" vibrated, nothing happens. The fact that things happen to children, must be mostly relating to their genetic vibration, plus some socialization vibes. Or, socialization effects quickly and deeply, so that attracting a threat or danger becomes enabled.

well, that sure gives torturers a lot of wiggle room. a sadist could be gleefully pulling out your fingernails w/ white hot pliers and, based on your premise, accurately say to you, while you're screaming in agony, "I'm not being cruel. the pain and terror you're experiencing is just your individual perception. If you weren't accepting all this pain I'm inflicting on you nothing would be happening. your agony is all your own manifestation since you have enabled me with your egoistic genetic and socialized vibes."

imo, your premise is great ... for psychopaths.

[Kathrin]

Please read through the whole thread. I summed up the latest thoughts. Would you say spiritual murder is a murder at all? What are your ideas on this?

[Kathrin]

I find the "breaking of the will" interesting too. That seems ego related. Not so sure though. Will may administer the expression of Self/Source through personality and ego. I think it does. So, then back to the beginning... Breaking the will to express cuts the flow between Source through Self to the individual and ego: Death of self expression, death of soulful presence, death of a self-oriented strategy in life... etc..