Conducive to purpose

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Up to the end point there is always more to come into the deeper realizations of self, because you cannot know what the path and experience of life, truth and unfolding of yourself will be as a whole context of the lived experience, regardless of beliefs and end points. When you reach an end point that ties into Buddhist teachings, can you know what is beyond that point? I would say the unknown exists within all beliefs, no one can know the full extent of themselves through the process of the whole life experience and what may come.

Do you know what a Buddha is? How about a bodhisattvas?

Maybe this will help.

From the Avatamsaka Sutra...



Great bodhisattvas have no attachment to Buddha and do not develop attachments;

they have no attachment to the teachings and do not develop attachments; they have

no attachment to lands and do not develop attachments; they have no attachments

to sentient beings and do not develop attachments. They do not see that there are

sentient beings, yet they carry on educational activity, civilizing and teaching ways

of liberation; they do not give up the practices of bodhisattvas with great compassion

and great commitment. Seeing buddhas and hearing their teachings, they act accordingly;

trusting the buddhas they plant roots of goodness, ceaselessly honoring and serving them.



They are able to shake infinite worlds in the ten directions by spiritual powers; their minds are

broad, being equal to the cosmos. They know various explanations of truth, they know how

many sentient beings there are, they know the differences among sentient beings, they know

the birth of suffering, they know the extinction of suffering; while knowing all acts are like reflected

images, they carry out the deeds of bodhisattvas. They sever the root of all subjection to birth.



They carry out practices of bodhisattvas for the sole purpose of saving sentient beings and yet

do not practice anything. Conforming to the essential nature of all buddhas, they develop a mind

like an immense mountain. They know all falsehood and delusion, and enter the door of omniscience.

Their knowledge and wisdom are broad and vast and unshakable, due to the attainment of true enlightenment. This is the insight of practical knowledge of equally saving all sentient beings in the ocean of birth and death.

So in this view, I suppose you could say, the understanding of true self as I relate to it, is in line with this, if I may use this quote as my guide.

The Buddha taught that your true nature is emptiness and when this true nature is realized, the divine states of loving-kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity emerge.

My quote above shows much more emerges, or one realizes they are much more than just a nice person.

Yes for comparisons and understanding yourself in process of becoming your true self, it could support you to find a foundational practice and teaching that assists you that you can relate too.. But again I emphasize that the path of becoming your true self when realized through your own practice, however that may come about, can lead to this understanding most naturally, especially in regard to what I posted above. Any seeker can establish the understanding of the true self as the qualities and state of being, suggested by Buddha. I am not saying this is the be all, end all of Buddhism, I am just pointing to what I see is, through Buddhism, as a more universal understanding that can be gained through the wisdom of your own conscious walk through life without beliefs.

You see there are degrees.. You want to know where true compassion and loving kindness comes from? It comes from clarity.

This is an aspect of the Primordial State.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.

For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

I think you can see where being a nice person and actually realizing such a state of being is much different.

Just being open and self aware one can journey through the life experience and gain their realizations that way. In this way, is Buddhism needed? I see its a choice of support, when one is not fully conscious of their process and haven't discovered their true nature.

Not in what you are describing no. It would not be Buddhism or any tradition to be honest.

Do you feel that there is an end point of full realization of the true self that is a way of being where you see yourself creating an external reality as that, that you become that reflection and can see it occurring as so.

I don't believe there is an end point. I also know the more I change the more others change around me. Look within for the entire universe is inside of you.

How do you see yourself in the being or becoming of your true self right now where you are in your process?

By letting go more and more of my obstructions that then helps me realize more of that which I am.

What is the end point your seeking that you see you will gain through reading and understanding yourself through Buddhist teachings?

Being a Buddha of course, but also not falling into the trap that I have arrived. Knowledge helps one also understand what they are experiencing.


For instance, for years I felt these flows of energy in my head. Thoughts sometimes as silent or not as this every flowing energy. Like the wind from a fan. I could reside in those flows and all sorts of things but I didn't know what they were until I read this book.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ght=primordial

Learning in this way to remain in relaxed presence,
at a certain moment you find yourself in a state in
which even though more or less thoughts continue to
arise they do not disturb your presence and they vanish
by themselves. That is, they self- liberate, because this
state is not conditioned by the habitual continuity of
judgement.

Particularly evident in this state is pure presence,
called rigpa, non-dual awareness.

Discernible within it, are three distinct fundamental
elements ( ne-gyu- rig):

1) nepa, the calm state, like a still sheet of water;
2) gyuwa, the movement of thoughts, like a wave;
3) rigpa, the recognition of the presence of this wave.

These three elements, however, are all present
simultaneously in the same condition. Only by being
in the state of Shine can you ascertain this concretely.

In this state there is nothing to seek and nothing to
relinquish.

Typically, beginners think that the calm state of
Shine is something to pursue, and that, conversely, the
arising of thoughts is an obstacle that can disturb the
calm state, which must thus be avoided. However, once
you finally find yourself in the state of union of ne-gyurig
and continue in this presence then you understand
that this is the authentic state of Shine.

In this way you discover that quietude, nepa, and
the arising of thoughts, gyuwa, are both present.

That is what I was and yet here I found it in Buddhism. In the teachings of a master.

I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Who would those people be?
Do you know people personally who do this?
Why would someone parade around as a Buddhist and not know anything about it and deter others. That doesn't make sense to me. If you believe your Buddhist wouldn't you be supportive of others as you see yourself being regardless of knowledge.

Your last comment is really just assuming the why. How can you know the why's of others in this way?

Not assuming anything.

All you have to do is look in this section of the forum.

I have been here for a long time and have been made fun of, put down because I bring up Buddhist teachings in the Buddhist section.

Why would someone do it? IDK, ask them.

Why does it seem like you don't want to read a sutra? Is it because it is to long or to old?

Why haven't you searched what void or emptiness means before talking about it?

All it takes is a little curiosity.. like I don't believe jonesboy in what he is saying.. let me look it up. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right.. either way the looking, reading and then knowing most defiantly doesn't hurt you.

All the best to you,

Tom

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

read sutras

Is this where you go to learn about yourself? To ideas and words from another?
What have you learned about yourself from sutras? From others?
What are you as you exist in this moment?
What is your attention on?
What do you believe yourself to be?
How can another know what you are in this moment?
This is only something you can know.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Is this where you go to learn about yourself? To ideas and words from another?
What have you learned about yourself from sutras? From others?

Please read 3 posts above this one for your answer.

What are you as you exist in this moment?

Everywhere.

What is your attention on?

The present moment

What do you believe yourself to be?

The emptiness that is beyond Universal Consciousness

How can another know what you are in this moment?
This is only something you can know.

With clarity comes knowing. Please read 3 posts above this one for your answer.

All the best.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Please read 3 posts above this one for your answer.



Everywhere.



The present moment



The emptiness that is beyond Universal Consciousness



With clarity comes knowing. Please read 3 posts above this one for your answer.

All the best.

Regarding post 3 above this one.....



They carry out practices of bodhisattvas for the sole purpose of saving sentient beings and yet

' They do not practice anything. Conforming to the essential nature of all buddhas, they develop a mind '


Great post but this jumped out at me
Rather than being a practice or doing a practice it's a ' Happening ' which I see as different from a practice.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Regarding post 3 above this one.....



They carry out practices of bodhisattvas for the sole purpose of saving sentient beings and yet

' They do not practice anything. Conforming to the essential nature of all buddhas, they develop a mind '


Great post but this jumped out at me
Rather than being a practice or doing a practice it's a ' Happening ' which I see as different from a practice.

Yes,

Eventually it becomes a being, a non doing.

The problem is that people think they have arrived at that point much sooner that they really should. There is a progression, a change in being to get to that point of truly just being. Which is why a Bodhisattva is farther along than an Arhat.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Yes,

Eventually it becomes a being, a non doing.

The problem is that people think they have arrived at that point much sooner that they really should. There is a progression, a change in being to get to that point of truly just being. Which is why a Bodhisattva is farther along than an Arhat.

If you had arrived at that point of just being would you be ' Thinking ' you had arrived?
Doesn't the fact that your ' Thinking ' show that you haven't.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

If you had arrived at that point of just being would you be ' Thinking ' you had arrived?
Doesn't the fact that your ' Thinking ' show that you haven't.

Thinking is not the problem and is very normal. To type, to have a conversation is to think. Is one only enlightened when one is just sitting doing nothing?

No.

What you just asked is the perfect example of how we have different traditions.

Some stop at silence and call it done or think you have a soul like Advaita Vedanta.

Other's move beyond that and say that silence and form/energy are one and is everything. Universal Consciousness with the powers of creation and call it done. Kashmir Shaivism.

While others would say there is an emptiness beyond Universal Consciousness. That the concept of Universal Consciousness is a limitation all in itself. Buddhism.

That is just three very broad examples. Each one will have steps along the way of silence, of no thinking but thinking or not isn't what matters. It is about that clarity I posted about early. That is what the removal of obstructions is all about.

Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.

For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.

Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."

Thank you for the great question sky.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Thinking is not the problem and is very normal. To type, to have a conversation is to think. Is one only enlightened when one is just sitting doing nothing?

No.

What you just asked is the perfect example of how we have different traditions.

Some stop at silence and call it done or think you have a soul like Advaita Vedanta.

Other's move beyond that and say that silence and form/energy are one and is everything. Universal Consciousness with the powers of creation and call it done. Kashmir Shaivism.

While others would say there is an emptiness beyond Universal Consciousness. That the concept of Universal Consciousness is a limitation all in itself. Buddhism.

That is just three very broad examples. Each one will have steps along the way of silence, of no thinking but thinking or not isn't what matters. It is about that clarity I posted about early. That is what the removal of obstructions is all about.



Thank you for the great question sky.

No you don't stop thinking after reaching enlightenment, well Buddha didn't
What I meant and probably didn't explain correctly is.... If you had arrived you would know and be aware therefore you wouldn't need to think ' I have reached that point ' you would just be....

[Gem]

Many years ago I worked in horticulture and had to understand the conditions different plants need to grow. Some like shade and are burnt by the sun and others like full sun and grow weak in the shade. Some like a lot of water; others like dry conditions.


Given the right conditions, they grow well, so the gardener is concerned with the conditions for growth, and not the growth itself. Indeed, all one can do is provide the optimum conditions - one cannot make things grow.


There is no one 'optimum condition' that pertains to them all, but they are all cared for by the attentive gardener who produces the conditions in which each of them thrive.


The first step is the seed selection. We select the best seeds.
The second step is the soil preparation. We make the soil suitable.
The third step is the watering. We give the 'right' amount.
The last step is to care. We watch over it carefully.


The new seedling needs the most attention, checked on this two or three times a day - but the huge tree needs next to none for it has grown very strong. Indeed the huge tree gives a gardener a cool place to rest. They live together in a mutual appreciation, as the gardener selects from that tree the seeds of the seedlings to come.