New Age Deceptions.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Starman

Parents and other relatives would hire "de-programmers" to kidnap their loved ones away from these movements, physically force-ably grab them and bring them to their loved ones. They would then try to de-program these people who they kidnapped to try an get them back into the conformity of mainstream American thinking. Back then some in these movements considered de-programming to be a challenge as to how strong their beliefs were in the movement which they were in.

But admittedly there were also a lot of people who were abused or damaged by their participation in these movements, but it also agreed with many who joined. The Hari Krishna movement has dwindled but other new startup religions from the 1970's, like "Science of Mind," the new age and new thought movements, etc., have grown, My position on it is to each their own; I take from many various paths but do not embrace any label for my own path.

Firstly, I must say that this is very sad. It is the epitome of selfishness on behalf of the parents or relatives who are acting in their own self interests and not those of their loved one. This unmitigated aspect of control to do the 'socially acceptable thing' at all costs...even to the emotional and mental detriment of the loved one, whereby blind obedience being more important than love, is what makes them go and join cults in the first place... and I speak from experience.

As for the topic in a general sense, the biggest lie... The biggest illusion, is to try and find any meaning or purpose behind existence so that it fits in with an established and individually accepted paradigm. Truth becomes compartmentalized based only upon previous experience and is usually reduced to the lowest common denominator, due to ease of reference and understanding for the perusal, understanding and acceptance of a wide and diverse spectrum of the population who may not have those same experiences or even any intelligence whatsoever to comprehend or understand it in anything other than its most simplest form.

For many, we already know...we are aware that we are the essence of Pure Consciousness...we are essentially Divine, so anything else is not who we 'are' or ever can be, but the majority...even many so-called spiritual people are not yet aware of it...so, they need to start out somewhere and spiritual teachers, writers etc, personally exemplify that...to basically appeal to the 'beginners mind' as it were, with all of us 'old hats' going 'that's not the way it is'.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Kioma

I think we should agree everyone has their own way of seeing things, and their own path.

This gives a lot of room to everyone, IMO.

At the same time, we should be open to the probability that from the many voices one, or some, might actually be right, and we should strive to identify which that is! Also, in any matter, the truth is one (if we don't consider a quantum approach, where observation influences reality), but the untruth comes in many degrees, and they aren't all equal.

As a real example, for most of my life I was overweight in various degrees, and I almost always was on the lookout for a solution, unsuccessfully, until 2002, when I found the solution, I successfully applied it, and for the last 16 years I've had my weight under control, at the optimum level. I shared my finding, enthusiastically in the beginning, with everybody who was interested, but there was almost nobody who followed in my steps. The secret: count your calories, and weigh yourself everyday to have a feedback of how you're doing!

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I read the wise words on this page but one has to realise that this has been an explosion as Starman describes. It's a new market. Unfortunately it isn't selling tangible goods or regulated services so it's difficult to bring it under consumer law (though that exists in the European Union). Thus among the many viable and usable spiritual propositions, the flood gates let in charlatans and money makers peddling what's effectively trash. In some cases, fraud. These miscreants prey on the vulnerable. Hence the need for critical examination - exposing the flawed logic, the inconsistencies, fake facts etc. (I gave examples of some I found).

The upshot is likely those who unwittingly fall for the fakery will be at least disappointed, at worse emotionally damaged; or simply give up when after some effort the proposition hasn't worked.

That's the essence of what LiberatedLotus had to say, as I see it. It does happen, useless to deny it.

♥

Hello Lorelyen
Trash and fraud can be found in all systems the world operates as.
The vulnerable are prey throughout these systems everywhere.
Emotional damage is often created long before the system takes over.
The system feeds what has already been fed in some form.
The creation of all these offerings within the new age movement is a reflection of the creator themselves.
It pays to look at the person/persons running the show in all regards.
Your only aware of others as aware you are of yourself, so that can be tricky, because we are often linking in ways that we cannot always know what the purpose of those roles is awakening.
The blind are leading the blind.
Even aware blindness, the seeks to rip people off, harm or hurt, is blind at some level of blindness. (Not that I agree suffering is the way to wake people up from their slumber. But sometimes the deeper ingrained conditioned ways do seek out suffering to understand what they themselves have become to become something else)



I am not sure why people constantly make spirituality a separate issue to what is a life issue. Siding and segregation, truth versus truth. Damage and being influenced by others. Choices and learning, on and on it goes....

I think we could all be labelled under the banner of fake (blinded and unaware) at many intersecting exchanges in this world. We are the movement moving through this world, being educated and having our eyes open to the nature of what is. So what I was yesterday compared today could well be classed as a fake me, blinded in some form to what I didn't know, but know on this day. I was interacting and engaging with the world so what did I land in the ripples of myself of all those times I moved my movement through this world?

I know good people doing good work in my world, but I sometimes look into these groups and see their fears and deeper issues coming through the creative source they provide for others. I look at the following they have and I see they are all linking calling to themselves something they need to see and open too deeper.

In the end you cant escape yourself no matter what you provide as a tool, whether its new age or old age. ON the receiving end you need to be aware of yourself as this too. See yourself in it all. Reflect through the whole shared space. Listen to yourself through it all to learn and grow. In the willingness to be open to yourself and let go of things more freely that signal through the whole space, letting go externally tends to become much easier as well in this way.

Its interesting I am a new ager (well I was) I utilized so many tools to open and grow. It was very supportive to me to learn and deepen what I am now. What I have become within myself, seeing things more directly. Seeing the truth of myself more as an open vessel that is moving through this life now, not attached to anything, but utilizing what I love and enjoy. There is a freedom in now being open and aware of my own tools as just that, "tools". Some people still need new age tools, which like all systems has its good and bad supportive spaces. But to each choice, there will always be something more opening beyond what just we see as deception. Deception is about yourself. So being deceived and suffering through these means comes back to the self in everyway of what we choose and created to bring that undone, often without full realization of our own binds to it.

I think many underestimate the power of what moves between spaces. We are so busy rushing through life and seeking out the tool and person we think will fix us and all things, we miss those vital links between each other that offers pause and reflection deeper into our own truth and true nature.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Starman

The term "New Age" is mostly used in the U.S., Canada, and some small parts of Europe.
An it is mostly used by people who are not a part of, or associated with, the so-called
new age movement. People in the so-called new age movement usually do not think of
themselves as "New Age'rs." Most people in the new age movement do not use the term
"New Age" to describe their practice. Indeed, what they practice was taken from stuff,
such as yoga, meditation, astrology, etc., that in many cases is thousands of years old
and came before the term "New Age." This term is mostly used by people who are critical
of this movement.

If you go to Africa, India, Asia, China, or countries in the Middle-east, they will not know
what you are talking about when you say the "New Age Movement." It is mostly a western
concept initially developed by traditional established religions, primarily Christianity,
who felt threatened by this new movement. But today there are some Christian denominations,
like the Episcopal faith and Christian Gnostic's, who embrace and incorporate, some of the
practices used by the so-called "new age movement."

It also appears to be an aspect of human behavior, whereby anything older than a generation or two is seen as being outdated, defunct and no longer relevant to today's society. So, they must continue to 'reinvent the wheel', without giving any reference to the fact that it a actually IS a wheel, because that would lead it back to the original concept which is no longer relevant. However, in the attempt to do so, it bears little to no resemblance to the initial concept it was taken from anyway, so even the implied premise gets waylaid in the translation...and it is when these corruptions are asserted as being based on a 5,000 year old set of teachings...which is like cheese being compared to chalk, is when my vehement-o-meter becomes activated.

[LiberatedLotus]

Originally Posted by lemex

Here is the difficulty. One, New Age has no leaders and is completely decentralized. There is no organization, no structure and completely hands off.

New Age may be the expression of a change of consciousness and since it is new there will be many mistakes imo. It still remains a choice! This may be the evolution consciousness in awareness always takes every few thousand years or so, are we ready. New ways of seeing.

True. I'm all for growth and expansion ( ideally
with the objective being one of advancement
/ evolution ) on the personal & "collective" / global
& universal platforms.

However, one must remain cognizant & diligent
in their efforts to attain this. To maintain their
individuality / sovereignty & never submitting or
compromising their intrinsic faculties in the process.


I think of it as a two-fold approach / offense & defense mechanisms.

I ask.

What is consciousness? The scope of consciousness?

Is it solely the awareness of the symphonic synchronicities of the Universe
down to the sub atomic
level of existence to the movement of heavenly
bodies in "space" to the ancient blood of our ancestors
that runs through our spiritual veins?

Does this extend to the awareness of the toxicity that is
also present at the sub atomic level of existence passed
through generations of existence? The complete
dismantling & dissent of man: mans genome, mans psyche, mans spirit, and mans soul.
The rape of our planet. The annihilation of ecosystem/s. The lethal doses of chemicals being pumped through
almost everything modern man consumes. The infinte amount of toxic elements that have shaped our cultures. The parasitic forces that
have infiltrated every institution known to man.
The tragic imbalances of the world that are mere reflections of the imbalances within man. The incapacity
& failure to liberate ones self from the bondages that
continue to enslave all of existence.

Is one also conscious of secret societies? Their ancient roots?
Dark Occultism? Dark sorcery. Powers of control.
Group think. Mind control. Genetic manipulation. Chem trails. Etc.

Sure, one can internally deconstruct the entire thing & liberate themselves through the mastery of self
yet the conditions still exist in the external. You can take
the highest form of externalized power & see the roots
of inverted power and they are the ones that are ironically enslaved at the highest level in the
most severe statest. Sure one can dismantle the entire thing to see the core yet the facade still remains for most.

[LiberatedLotus]

Originally Posted by starman

It does not take much to know whether you are in the shadows or the light, it is something
we feel more than we think. An we can learn and grow from the shadows as well as we can
from the light. Some of my deepest insights have come from some of the darkest nights of my
"soul." It is my belief that there is no place where God is not, and it seems most people,
including myself, had to go through hell to get to heaven.

Indeed.
It is through the darkest nights of the soul
that I found the purest of light.

One can do extensive shadow work & understand
how darkness has its place.
However, the amount of darkness in this world is
another question entirely.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by LiberatedLotus

True. I'm all for growth and expansion ( ideally
with the objective being one of advancement
/ evolution ) on the personal & "collective" / global
& universal platforms.

However, one must remain cognizant & diligent
in their efforts to attain this. To maintain their
individuality / sovereignty & never submitting or
compromising their intrinsic faculties in the process.


I think of it as a two-fold approach / offense & defense mechanisms.

I ask.
It
What is consciousness? The scope of consciousness?

Is it solely the awareness of the symphonic synchronicities of the Universe
down to the sub atomic
level of existence to the movement of heavenly
bodies in "space" to the ancient blood of our ancestors
that runs through our spiritual veins?

Does this extend to the awareness of the toxicity that is
also present at the sub atomic level of existence passed
through generations of existence? The complete
dismantling & dissent of man: mans genome, mans psyche, mans spirit, and mans soul.
The rape of our planet. The annihilation of ecosystem/s. The lethal doses of chemicals being pumped through
almost everything modern man consumes. The infinte amount of toxic elements that have shaped our cultures. The parasitic forces that
have infiltrated every institution known to man.
The tragic imbalances of the world that are mere reflections of the imbalances within man. The incapacity
& failure to liberate ones self from the bondages that
continue to enslave all of existence.

Is one also conscious of secret societies? Their ancient roots?
Dark Occultism? Dark sorcery. Powers of control.
Group think. Mind control. Genetic manipulation. Chem trails. Etc.

Sure, one can internally deconstruct the entire thing & liberate themselves through the mastery of self
yet the conditions still exist in the external. You can take
the highest form of externalized power & see the roots
of inverted power and they are the ones that are ironically enslaved at the highest level in the
most severe statest. Sure one can dismantle the entire thing to see the core yet the facade still remains for most.

Kindly allow me to give my honest interpretation on this issue, even though it was not asked of me and for that, I apologise.

Consciousness is the self-aware and underlying energy and vibration of all particles of matter, both atomic and sub-atomic which totally pervades space (also existing beyond it) in this universe and dimension, as well as infinite parallel ones...it also exists as and vibrates to the frequency of unconditional love and the Pure bliss of its own self awareness.

Anything that is superimposed onto Consciousness, like form, function, identity, conflict and any notion of duality, can be ascribed to be an emanation of Consciousness, arising from it ( as everything does) but other than that, it has absolutely nothing to do with Consciousness itself, as an unknown and experientially unrealised quantity.

Consciousness is like the book, the paper, the ink, the pen/printer which enables the story to be written...but each writes the story totally irrespective of it, speaking from the Mind and the ego form of self to do so, because they fully realise that to speak from the heart or the core of one's own soul in respect to the nature of Consciousness, will only lead to everyone taking whatever they say for granted as being the absolute truth and thus, they will be overlooked, ignored and end up losing whatever Vestige of personality and individuality they have remaining in the process anyway... because nobody can argue, refute, criticise, find fault with etc, and that's all most people are on the listen-out for anyway, so anything else becomes subconsciously and effortlessly disregarded and dismissed.

Originally Posted by Kioma

You started out well, but I'm not sure your second or last statement could be called an 'upshot'.

But you're right, the world guides - at least to those who are listening.

Thank you. Always useful to have a good pedant on board to keep me in check. I'll use "result" in future as that appears to have the same usage in the USA as the UK.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Hello Lorelyen
Trash and fraud can be found in all systems the world operates as.
The vulnerable are prey throughout these systems everywhere.
Emotional damage is often created long before the system takes over.
The system feeds what has already been fed in some form.
The creation of all these offerings within the new age movement is a reflection of the creator themselves.
It pays to look at the person/persons running the show in all regards.
Your only aware of others as aware you are of yourself, so that can be tricky, because we are often linking in ways that we cannot always know what the purpose of those roles is awakening.
The blind are leading the blind.
Even aware blindness, the seeks to rip people off, harm or hurt, is blind at some level of blindness. (Not that I agree suffering is the way to wake people up from their slumber. But sometimes the deeper ingrained conditioned ways do seek out suffering to understand what they themselves have become to become something else)

I'm not disputing what you're saying. With spiritual matters it's all too easy to take advantage of the unwary. There are no tangible goods or services that often come with guarantees; there's no consumer protection; no recourse if things go wrong; nothing can be proven - which is a magnet to scammers.
Once religions (which quickly became politicised and governmental) stopped burning people at the stake or throwing people off rooves, in they come - anything goes and with the right sales techniques we can make a lot of money.

I am not sure why people constantly make spirituality a separate issue to what is a life issue.

Perhaps because it is "new" to them at the outset of their realisation. People don't see it that way because they're only now waking to the possibilities. Even in mainstream bookshops the section is usually titled "Body Mind Spirit" (in some cases "self development") to widen the capture range. Calling it "spiritual development" will attract less enquirers because of hints at religion. To me, perhaps yourself, life is spiritual development and the way is uniquely our own. But that's because we've already progressed from the start. Some of us can honestly feel there were no real start. We look back and it was always there.

I think we could all be labelled under the banner of fake (blinded and unaware) at many intersecting exchanges in this world. We are the movement moving through this world, being educated and having our eyes open to the nature of what is. So what I was yesterday compared today could well be classed as a fake me, blinded in some form to what I didn't know, but know on this day. I was interacting and engaging with the world so what did I land in the ripples of myself of all those times I moved my movement through this world?

Yes but it still comes back to purveying material of dubious provenance knowingly - or half-baked, ill-thought-out stuff. I've given many examples of findings on the web - not my opinion, they contain flaws that render them potentially unworkable. The seasoned adept might make something of them - such can make a grimoire of anything - but the newly awakened can't.

I know good people doing good work in my world, but I sometimes look into these groups and see their fears and deeper issues coming through the creative source they provide for others. I look at the following they have and I see they are all linking calling to themselves something they need to see and open too deeper.

Well, my issue with gurus/teachers is far from unique and I don't expect others to accept it. On making a start it's almost always utterances by others that set us up and we move on from them - self exploration rather than accepting the teachings of others unless the resonance is obviously there...for whatever reason. Like my attachment to Vodou. I can only speculate on why and how "it felt natural" (to a white caucasian). As you say people are out there doing good work and it needn't be overtly spiritual. People are gregarious. Some conglobulate in spiritual groups, others, otherwise.

In the end you cant escape yourself no matter what you provide as a tool, whether its new age or old age. ON the receiving end you need to be aware of yourself as this too. See yourself in it all. Reflect through the whole shared space. Listen to yourself through it all to learn and grow. In the willingness to be open to yourself and let go of things more freely that signal through the whole space, letting go externally tends to become much easier as well in this way.

Its interesting I am a new ager (well I was) I utilized so many tools to open and grow. It was very supportive to me to learn and deepen what I am now. What I have become within myself, seeing things more directly. Seeing the truth of myself more as an open vessel that is moving through this life now, not attached to anything, but utilizing what I love and enjoy. There is a freedom in now being open and aware of my own tools as just that, "tools". Some people still need new age tools, which like all systems has its good and bad supportive spaces. But to each choice, there will always be something more opening beyond what just we see as deception. Deception is about yourself. So being deceived and suffering through these means comes back to the self in everyway of what we choose and created to bring that undone, often without full realization of our own binds to it.

Still comes back to the usability of what we take from the New Age. Vodou was New Age in that it's an amalgam of very ancient traditions that evolved for a particular purpose over a couple of centuries. It moved forward into Vodou gnosticism that took off in the 1950s while still reliant on its root principles. It's important not to stand still. Of an exploratory mind, a worker in a creative field, I ultimately have to find my own way. The tools are there. Its methods were more about "here are the ideas, try them out," than "this factoid is a fact ad if you want to go down this path you'd better believe it."

Perhaps I'm past my sell-by date for this forum now. I, like Lotus posit there's a lot of fakery among the new age, a good many charlatans, many unworkable things in the final analysis. It's frustrating to read through something then hit on a piece of flawed logic (or measure something as I did) and know that it won't work.

Then again (she sighs) it may be better to let people fall into traps because the bigger lessons are learned escaping them.

But as ever, thank you for your response! And now...off too keep fit so I may have to edit this !

Talk later

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Hello Lorelyen
Trash and fraud can be found in all systems the world operates as.
The vulnerable are prey throughout these systems everywhere.
Emotional damage is often created long before the system takes over.
The system feeds what has already been fed in some form.
The creation of all these offerings within the new age movement is a reflection of the creator themselves.
It pays to look at the person/persons running the show in all regards.
Your only aware of others as aware you are of yourself, so that can be tricky, because we are often linking in ways that we cannot always know what the purpose of those roles is awakening.
The blind are leading the blind.
Even aware blindness, the seeks to rip people off, harm or hurt, is blind at some level of blindness. (Not that I agree suffering is the way to wake people up from their slumber. But sometimes the deeper ingrained conditioned ways do seek out suffering to understand what they themselves have become to become something else)

I'm not disputing what you're saying. With spiritual matters it's all too easy to take advantage of the unwary. There are no tangible goods or services that often come with guarantees; there's no consumer protection; no recourse if things go wrong; nothing can be proven - which is a magnet to scammers.
Once religions (which quickly became politicised and governmental) stopped burning people at the stake or throwing people off rooves, in they come - anything goes and with the right sales techniques we can make a lot of money.

I am not sure why people constantly make spirituality a separate issue to what is a life issue.

Perhaps because it is "new" to them at the outset of their realisation. People don't see it that way because they're only now waking to the possibilities. Even in mainstream bookshops the section is usually titled "Body Mind Spirit" (in some cases "self development") to widen the capture range. Calling it "spiritual development" will attract less enquirers because of hints of religion/proselyting. To me, perhaps yourself, life is spiritual development and the way is uniquely our own. But that's because we've already progressed from the start. Some of us can honestly feel there was no real start. We look back and it was always there.

I think we could all be labelled under the banner of fake (blinded and unaware) at many intersecting exchanges in this world. We are the movement moving through this world, being educated and having our eyes open to the nature of what is. So what I was yesterday compared today could well be classed as a fake me, blinded in some form to what I didn't know, but know on this day. I was interacting and engaging with the world so what did I land in the ripples of myself of all those times I moved my movement through this world?

Yes but it still comes back to purveying material of dubious provenance knowingly - or half-baked, ill-thought-out stuff. I've given many examples of findings on the web - not my opinion, they contain flaws that render them potentially unworkable. The seasoned adept might make something of them - such can make a grimoire of anything - but the newly "awakened" can't.

I know good people doing good work in my world, but I sometimes look into these groups and see their fears and deeper issues coming through the creative source they provide for others. I look at the following they have and I see they are all linking calling to themselves something they need to see and open too deeper.

Well, my issue with gurus/teachers isn't unique and I don't expect others to accept my view. On making a start it's almost always others' utterances that set us off and we move on from them - self exploration rather than accepting the teachings of others unless the resonance is obviously there...for whatever reason. Like my attachment to Vodou. I can only speculate on why and how "it felt natural" (to a white caucasian). As you say people are out there doing good work and it needn't even fall under a spiritual banner. People are gregarious. Some conglobulate in spiritual groups, others, otherwise.

In the end you cant escape yourself no matter what you provide as a tool, whether its new age or old age. ON the receiving end you need to be aware of yourself as this too. See yourself in it all. Reflect through the whole shared space. Listen to yourself through it all to learn and grow. In the willingness to be open to yourself and let go of things more freely that signal through the whole space, letting go externally tends to become much easier as well in this way.

Its interesting I am a new ager (well I was) I utilized so many tools to open and grow. It was very supportive to me to learn and deepen what I am now. What I have become within myself, seeing things more directly. Seeing the truth of myself more as an open vessel that is moving through this life now, not attached to anything, but utilizing what I love and enjoy. There is a freedom in now being open and aware of my own tools as just that, "tools". Some people still need new age tools, which like all systems has its good and bad supportive spaces. But to each choice, there will always be something more opening beyond what just we see as deception. Deception is about yourself. So being deceived and suffering through these means comes back to the self in everyway of what we choose and created to bring that undone, often without full realization of our own binds to it.

Still comes back to the usability of what we take from the New Age. Vodou was New Age in that it's an amalgam of very ancient traditions that evolved for a particular purpose over a couple of centuries. It moved forward into Vodou gnosticism the 1930s-1950s while still reliant on its root principles. It's important not to stand still. Of an exploratory mind, a worker in a creative field, I ultimately have to find my own way. The tools are there. Its guru offering was more about "here are ideas, try them out," than "this factoid is a fact ad if you want to go down this path you'd better believe it."

Perhaps I'm past my sell-by date for this forum now. (Elswhere I gave a reason? Excuse? LOL for staying on.) I, like LiberatedLotus posit there's a lot of fakery among the new age, many charlatans, a few frauds. It's frustrating to read through something then hit on a piece of flawed logic or contradiction and know that it won't work.

Then again (she sighs) it may be better to let people fall into traps because the bigger lessons are learned escaping them.

But as ever, thank you for your response! And now...off too keep fit so I may have to edit this !

Talk later